Coronovirus Mortgage and Real Estate Crisis of 2020- NOT !

OneHugeMess

LoanSafe Member
May 30, 2016
575
51
28
Oh I have a lot of knowledge Moe- as an investor, a real estate investor, a businessman and a person whose family was bludgeoned by the sub-prime crisis. This experience dates back to 1981, so spare me your condescension. At the peak of my business career, my business was in the Top 100 in the U.S., in my category. A business I started with a $25 answering machine in a rented condo. My wife and I have been married for close to 40 years. We have two adult children that are college graduates and are successful now in their own careers.

Information and facts you say? Coming up my friend. Here's just the beginning. You'll see that I am naturally drawn toward information and facts that look for the silver lining when problems arise. I will always read the 'gloom and doom' stuff too, for perspective. Sometimes, the gloom and doom predictions (you're favorite?) have merit. In this case, I think they'll be proven wrong.
Can you tell me how things are going with your Father?

I know things have been rough since you lost your home, and had to move back in with parents, but you are not fooling anyone here. I don't know why it is -- that you are still drawn to this site, but move on honey. You come across so pathetic in your posts, and desperate. It's not a good look.
 
C

Chasegame two

Guest
Can you tell me how things are going with your Father?

I know things have been rough since you lost your home, and had to move back in with parents, but you are not fooling anyone here. I don't know why it is -- that you are still drawn to this site, but move on honey. You come across so pathetic in your posts, and desperate. It's not a good look.
Thank you for the encouragement!

For what its worth, my Dad passed away in 1990. And, thanks in part to this website, we never lost our home. Also, I moved out of my parents home to attend college when I was 18 years old.

So, I'm not sure who you are referring to, but clearly you are mistaken. Just do a search here on this website under everything Chasegame. That's me.

We had an underwater 2nd with Chase and our 1st with Chase as well. Tom Eason's Strategy for Settling Seconds provided valuable insights and information that we followed. Ultimately we decided to go silent with RTR (they had our 2nd for awhile) because our settlement attempts were going nowhere. RTR must have given up too as they sent our 2nd back to Chase! Then out of nowhere, Chase released us from the second. We got their letter in the mail. Before celebrating or telling my wife, I went to the county recorder and sure enough, they released it.

This prompted me to re-engage here and share my story in the hope that it might help someone else.
 
S

Smile Back

Guest
I maybe new here but just like some of you guys, I also experienced traumatic experiences in this crisis since 2010 and spent close to thousands - 40 grand + - just because I was disempowered. It’s a long story but the main essence is is I survived - hopefully to help others not to be “stupid” or ignorant as what Moe may meant.

it’s on you guys. This covid is getting us anxious and may say worlds without intending to offend.
Let’s just rest awhile and be grateful for whatever good we have. Not everyone got it. Time to reflect and maybe choose our words. We’re all in this together. We’ve been helped by this forum one way or another. Let’s acknowledge that and try to be courteous. Let’s contribute for the majority and wait. Crisis is just starting. Let’s see ... thanks.
 

isisis

LoanSafe Member
Jun 22, 2010
1,793
248
63
North bay
Caveat to anyone on this forum: never screw with Krafty. He and I often see things differently but we disagree as friends and with respect. Dissent in our discussions is productive and the point is not about being right but using the opportunity to expand our understanding.

Krafty is a gentleman and a scholar and a better man to have on your side than against you.
 
S

Smile Back

Guest
I’m sorry for some typos. I mean “ It’s not on you”. This Covid 19 is so unprecedented & unpredictable ( given no vaccine to date) -even best minds can’t find solutions to get the world back to “normal “ or at least “safe” conditions and stop further deaths.

Try to read news on how other countries handle this and it will remind us all “ how lucky we all are to be living in the USA - and be proud Americans.

RE: forbearance millions of homeowners have already taken, given the unresolved “ Great Recession”, where most homeowners have NOT been “fully “ modified- meaning banks held 2nds w/c used to be of no value but now becomes positive due to increased RE valuation, Or most were extended term to 40 years and same balance with not much equity. Worse, are those HAMP modifications, not aware taking forbearance- that HAMP will be nullified - bringing them back to high interest / high principal loans- until- the end of forbearance- when they thought they can re- modify - but lo & behold- banks knew & it’s MaYBE worse than 2008 Great Recession all over again.

How do we help these ppl ? I think is challenge for all of us - who has learned the ropes and got one or two knowledge picked up past 10 years. This is the time to care, be calm to beat covid 19.


chasegamer 2- maybe you can tell us what you did & how RTR gave up on you; Chase “forgave “ your 2nd,, is my understanding right? Or give this forum - some tips, based on your readings - the oversight agency, if any, who can verify what HAMP Directives for homeowners to know.
For getting your 2nd forgiven is one big blessing and maybe share this - thru the kindness of your heart, if you care to? Thanks again
 

isisis

LoanSafe Member
Jun 22, 2010
1,793
248
63
North bay
Can you tell me how things are going with your Father?

I know things have been rough since you lost your home, and had to move back in with parents, but you are not fooling anyone here. I don't know why it is -- that you are still drawn to this site, but move on honey. You come across so pathetic in your posts, and desperate. It's not a good look.
OHM,

I don't think that Chasegame two is the return of Patzz. Completely different writing style and I can't quite see her creating a completely new persona out of whole cloth. He seems interesting and resilient. Let's all try to play nice and give him a chance.

CG2, just remember all of us are used to fighting the banks and arguing with their attorneys. Tends to make us a bit testy.
 
C

Chasegame two

Guest
I’m sorry for some typos. I mean “ It’s not on you”. This Covid 19 is so unprecedented & unpredictable ( given no vaccine to date) -even best minds can’t find solutions to get the world back to “normal “ or at least “safe” conditions and stop further deaths.

Try to read news on how other countries handle this and it will remind us all “ how lucky we all are to be living in the USA - and be proud Americans.

RE: forbearance millions of homeowners have already taken, given the unresolved “ Great Recession”, where most homeowners have NOT been “fully “ modified- meaning banks held 2nds w/c used to be of no value but now becomes positive due to increased RE valuation, Or most were extended term to 40 years and same balance with not much equity. Worse, are those HAMP modifications, not aware taking forbearance- that HAMP will be nullified - bringing them back to high interest / high principal loans- until- the end of forbearance- when they thought they can re- modify - but lo & behold- banks knew & it’s MaYBE worse than 2008 Great Recession all over again.

How do we help these ppl ? I think is challenge for all of us - who has learned the ropes and got one or two knowledge picked up past 10 years. This is the time to care, be calm to beat covid 19.


chasegamer 2- maybe you can tell us what you did & how RTR gave up on you; Chase “forgave “ your 2nd,, is my understanding right? Or give this forum - some tips, based on your readings - the oversight agency, if any, who can verify what HAMP Directives for homeowners to know.
For getting your 2nd forgiven is one big blessing and maybe share this - thru the kindness of your heart, if you care to? Thanks again
Smile Back (love that handle btw)- you should be able to find my previous posts here and they may go back to 2014. They'll all be as Chasegame or similar. As noted, I had difficulty signing in here as just Chasegame during some website issues- hence the newer 'Chasegame two'. I had to start this thread because I still cannot post in most of the older threads here.

Here's a new general summary. (The dollars amounts I'm listing will be rough numbers because I'm too lazy right now to look for the actuals, but again, they're here on this site). Our original 1st was WAMU. Our original 2nd (HELOC) was also WAMU. Both of these loans became Chase loans.

We were bludgeoned during the sub-prime crisis. Not just the real estate we owned, but also our business went through a natural disaster at the same time. Like many, we went from pretty significant success and wealth to being forced to file Chapter 7. Brutal.

After the Chapter 7 we had some time to breathe. Looking back, that bankruptcy was such a blessing. We were barely able to hang on to our home and stayed current on our first, and the 2nd, but time was running out. That's when I found this website and specifically Tom Eason's Strategy for Settling Seconds. The information and testimonials in that thread gave me comfort, knowledge and a strategy.

Our 2nd ($250,000) was underwater by about $100-$150,000 at that time, so, following the strategy, we stopped making payments on it.

Like clockwork, as the strategy predicted, we started getting calls from Chase. I spoke to them several times, acted disinterested in even keeping the home, refused to provide financials and offered I think was around $6k to settle it. They said no, sent us all the Loan Mod paperwork several times, pushed HARD for us to make even token payments. Without success, I sent them a letter asking them not to call me anymore and just to communicate in writing. Several back and forths, and I upped the settlement offer to $7500 from what I remember. I did get a letter back each time saying essentially my offer could not be accepted. Then silence.

Not sure the gap in time but I was then noticed by Chase that my 2nd was now being serviced by RTR. So we started again with RTR, same pressure tactics, same suggestions (loan mod. blah blah). I recall at one point the RTR rep said "Chase will not accept anything less than $65,000 without financials". Pretty sure she goofed in telling me that, but I celebrated that night thinking I had finally broken through. We didn't have the $65k, but if i could settle $250k for $65k I was all over it. I sent her a letter the next day to memorialize her statement (very key) and once again offered $7500. Then I decided, per the strategy, to go silent. I didn't answer their calls. They even tried calling me with random numbers. Several months later I received a letter from RTR saying they had returned our file back to Chase! (no explanation as to why)

The irony and agony developing was watching our home value start to recover and recover quickly. Eventually the value was there, in fact, by my estimation, there was $100,000 minimum equity, and growing, over and above the 1st, 2nd, realtor fees, and fix up costs. If Chase had decided to foreclose on the second we were cooked. My only hope, and plan was, if they pursued foreclosure was to agree to whatever 'alternative' they suggested. We would have had no other option.

We heard nothing. For several years, nothing. We kept current on our first. Then, out of nowhere, I received a letter from Chase that the debt was released. They included a copy of the release document that had our county recorder stamp on it. I verified it at the county myself the next day.

That's when I signed in (or tried) again here, to share our story, say thank you for The Strategy and maybe offer some hope to others.

My apologies for the grammar and typos. I'm 1 full glass of cabernet in, on a Friday night : ) .
 
C

Chasegame two

Guest
OHM,

I don't think that Chasegame two is the return of Patzz. Completely different writing style and I can't quite see her creating a completely new persona out of whole cloth. He seems interesting and resilient. Let's all try to play nice and give him a chance.

CG2, just remember all of us are used to fighting the banks and arguing with their attorneys. Tends to make us a bit testy.
Thank you isisis.

I can't relate to arguing most days with bank attorneys, but I certainly can understand the frustration.
 
C

Chasegame two

Guest
FWIW- I watched a very well produced 2018 documentary on Amazon Prime (maybe HBO?) this week on the 2008 financial crisis. Amazing inside info with all the players (Geitner, Bernanke, Paulson et al). Fascinating. Infuriating.
Vice Special Report: Panic: The Untold Story of the 2008 Financial Crisis.
 
D

D.M.C.

Guest
I'll take an opposing viewpoint here, from my good friend Moe, and based upon my experience as a businessman, investor & real estate investor since 1981.

The current Coronavirus drama, angst, layoffs etc. are based upon uncertainty and rightly so. Ditto at the onset of the previous Sub-Prime crisis.

The difference this time will be:

1. The uncertainty will be resolved fairly quickly (malaria medicine etc) with permanent vaccination talk further easing concerns.
2. The most currently affected businesses will quickly re-open, re-hire. Late Spring/Early Summer.
3. The current POTUS (like him or hate him) understands business and is surrounded by business experts (not 'yes men')
4. Mortgage lenders/investors are being overly paranoid and cautious-fearing deja vu, but are comparing oranges to apples.
5. There is too much pent up demand for homes.
6. Before someone in China ate bat soup (or whatever), the U.S. economy was raging on solid fundamentals, record low unemployment, increasing wages and on and on and on......

In summary, this virus issue will be resolved very soon. In the very (very) short term there will be some economic trauma that will take a few months to recover from. But this is no way going to replicate the sub-prime crisis. No way.
Go to Federal Reserve website and look up TALF. Sure thing. Master Optimist : )
 
C

Chasegame two

Guest
Go to Federal Reserve website and look up TALF. Sure thing. Master Optimist : )
I'm certainly no expert and frankly surprised this succeeded, but I have read this several times now:

TALF's Success
Over the life of the program, all TALF loans were repaid in full at or before their respective maturity dates. The New York Fed did not incur a loss on any TALF loan, according to the Fed. As all TALF loans were repaid in full, no TALF collateral was surrendered to the New York Fed, and TALF LLC acquired no such assets during its existence.
 
C

Chasegame two

Guest
I found a very interesting Rolling Stone magazine article from 2010 titled 'The Great American Bubble Machine'. Yikes. It appears to be well researched and exposes Goldman Sachs and their nefarious activities-

 
S

Smile Back Leap of Faith

Guest
Thank you for summarizing what happened to your loan. You are one lucky homeowner, who didn't suffer as much as most of us do, just to assert our violated homeowners right. Some of us who are not as savvy as Isis, OHM,.Krafty, Raffy, Jzone from Ca, Chase 2 (who came back to provide positive support), and with a lot bright minds here, with admirable fighting spirit; and very generous to share- amazing! We all applaud and grateful you all are well to empower yourself and having the generosity of each other to fight your cause. Pardon me Chase 2 if given this 3 Million cases of coronavirus, 135,000 deaths, 50,000/day. almost 50Million unemployed ( despite Trillions of federal stimulus to biz & ppl), with recent 2M ppl returned but given the new restaurants recovery reversal, increased fear by consumers' and the 4.6 or may 5 Million homeowners taking forbearance. I wonder do these struggling homeowners took the time to read the fine line by servicer that may actually a "trap", worse off than what happened in Great Recession 2008? Have they read the Q &A that said summary, " Bank's previous trial or permanent HAMP/inservice lender modification, will be AFFECTED if homeowners take forbearance"? I inquired and I was told that "Whatever principal reduction, low interest rate, term extension or balloon payment end of term" will be VOID/ cancelled and loan will be re-reviewed based to current financials." Yet next stimulus is feeding Billions to these monsters?

I read most of the forum, and i feel someone from "Bagels' that we must unite and create a systemic changes to help not only our group here who knows bust mostly those non-tech-y, and naive homeowners, susceptible to be fraudulently milked by greedy and savvy lawyers, as i have experienced before. Maybe adding an amendment to Cares Act to "allow all "eligible" homeowners with principal residence or vacation homes (not commercial), to equally avail of the benefits of CARES Act, without causing any impact to any previously modified trial/permanent loan. This amendment will not put these homeowners back to pre-G Recession sub-prime loan; thus continue with sustainable payment.

The second amendment i feel is necessary is for CARES Act to provide the banks to honor their part of NSMF Agreement that they will help modify loans since 2012-2019, as they signed on 2/12 with DOJ- Kamala Harris. This means to provide a Guideline - maybe CARES ACT 2, to allow homeowners, whose 2nd liens or 1st liens were "incompletely modified" and they are now being help by affiliate as "silent" loans, awaiting for positive equity that they can grab again, despite bgetting credited 1:1 to either extinguish or forgive the loan. Instead banks either sold or transfer to affiliate collection companies.

As most survived 10, 11 12 years of this loan mod horror, surviving coronavirus will give us strength and courage to recoup, recharge and resurge. Maybe if some will bring this to Senate/Congress, struggling homeowners will be the priority , if Feds want a true economic recovery. Time has change. Congress/Senate must know, and maybe this time they will have the "CourageTo Act" (which btw is a book written by Ben Bernanke (?) during the 2008 Great Recession, what do you think? I'm sure you guys have a lot of great ideas. You can revise or add . The key point is for all of us to unite and truly connect to those who can provide the solutions that we can feed them the truth of how the banks have been enriching themselves to the point of homeowners and consumers getting poorer with negative net worth, because the banks kept manipulating the mortgage servicing system with all their lawyers, and funds that Feds continually feed them crisis after crisis. Time for change- Now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: isisis
C

Chasegame two

Guest
Thank you for summarizing what happened to your loan. You are one lucky homeowner, who didn't suffer as much as most of us do, just to assert our violated homeowners right. Some of us who are not as savvy as Isis, OHM,.Krafty, Raffy, Jzone from Ca, Chase 2 (who came back to provide positive support), and with a lot bright minds here, with admirable fighting spirit; and very generous to share- amazing! We all applaud and grateful you all are well to empower yourself and having the generosity of each other to fight your cause. Pardon me Chase 2 if given this 3 Million cases of coronavirus, 135,000 deaths, 50,000/day. almost 50Million unemployed ( despite Trillions of federal stimulus to biz & ppl), with recent 2M ppl returned but given the new restaurants recovery reversal, increased fear by consumers' and the 4.6 or may 5 Million homeowners taking forbearance. I wonder do these struggling homeowners took the time to read the fine line by servicer that may actually a "trap", worse off than what happened in Great Recession 2008? Have they read the Q &A that said summary, " Bank's previous trial or permanent HAMP/inservice lender modification, will be AFFECTED if homeowners take forbearance"? I inquired and I was told that "Whatever principal reduction, low interest rate, term extension or balloon payment end of term" will be VOID/ cancelled and loan will be re-reviewed based to current financials." Yet next stimulus is feeding Billions to these monsters?

I read most of the forum, and i feel someone from "Bagels' that we must unite and create a systemic changes to help not only our group here who knows bust mostly those non-tech-y, and naive homeowners, susceptible to be fraudulently milked by greedy and savvy lawyers, as i have experienced before. Maybe adding an amendment to Cares Act to "allow all "eligible" homeowners with principal residence or vacation homes (not commercial), to equally avail of the benefits of CARES Act, without causing any impact to any previously modified trial/permanent loan. This amendment will not put these homeowners back to pre-G Recession sub-prime loan; thus continue with sustainable payment.

The second amendment i feel is necessary is for CARES Act to provide the banks to honor their part of NSMF Agreement that they will help modify loans since 2012-2019, as they signed on 2/12 with DOJ- Kamala Harris. This means to provide a Guideline - maybe CARES ACT 2, to allow homeowners, whose 2nd liens or 1st liens were "incompletely modified" and they are now being help by affiliate as "silent" loans, awaiting for positive equity that they can grab again, despite bgetting credited 1:1 to either extinguish or forgive the loan. Instead banks either sold or transfer to affiliate collection companies.

As most survived 10, 11 12 years of this loan mod horror, surviving coronavirus will give us strength and courage to recoup, recharge and resurge. Maybe if some will bring this to Senate/Congress, struggling homeowners will be the priority , if Feds want a true economic recovery. Time has change. Congress/Senate must know, and maybe this time they will have the "CourageTo Act" (which btw is a book written by Ben Bernanke (?) during the 2008 Great Recession, what do you think? I'm sure you guys have a lot of great ideas. You can revise or add . The key point is for all of us to unite and truly connect to those who can provide the solutions that we can feed them the truth of how the banks have been enriching themselves to the point of homeowners and consumers getting poorer with negative net worth, because the banks kept manipulating the mortgage servicing system with all their lawyers, and funds that Feds continually feed them crisis after crisis. Time for change- Now.
If home loan defaults become widespread from Covid-19, I believe, this time, the Feds will act decisively in some fashion to prevent it. Whether its direct financial support to the property owners, or payments to the banks on behalf of John Q. Public's home mortgage, I don't think our government will allow another 2008. No way. There were/are too many bad lessons learned from that calamity. Again, if you have a chance watch the documentary -Vice Special Report: Panic: The Untold Story of the 2008 Financial Crisis. You and I were/are victimized by this calamity. It's our story and it's history. When you see firsthand the 'inside baseball' of what went on, I think it may give you some comfort/confidence that the Feds cannot let anything like that happen again. They learned too! I've read some comments from financial sector experts stating one thing they learned for sure from the 2008 crisis , was that they waited too long to act.

I also think you're smart to organize anyway and start that process right away. A big voice is always needed to get DC to listen. There's power in numbers. Maybe a national realtors association? A Howard Jarvis Prop 13 type group? I don't know, but if the defaults start happening nationwide in larger numbers due to Covid, others are going to be searching for such an organization to speak up for them too.

The 'forbearance' offers I saw and read about a few months ago, to me, seemed very vague, inconsistent and sketchy.
 

isisis

LoanSafe Member
Jun 22, 2010
1,793
248
63
North bay
Thank you for summarizing what happened to your loan. You are one lucky homeowner, who didn't suffer as much as most of us do, just to assert our violated homeowners right. Some of us who are not as savvy as Isis, OHM,.Krafty, Raffy, Jzone from Ca, Chase 2 (who came back to provide positive support), and with a lot bright minds here, with admirable fighting spirit; and very generous to share- amazing! We all applaud and grateful you all are well to empower yourself and having the generosity of each other to fight your cause. Pardon me Chase 2 if given this 3 Million cases of coronavirus, 135,000 deaths, 50,000/day. almost 50Million unemployed ( despite Trillions of federal stimulus to biz & ppl), with recent 2M ppl returned but given the new restaurants recovery reversal, increased fear by consumers' and the 4.6 or may 5 Million homeowners taking forbearance. I wonder do these struggling homeowners took the time to read the fine line by servicer that may actually a "trap", worse off than what happened in Great Recession 2008? Have they read the Q &A that said summary, " Bank's previous trial or permanent HAMP/inservice lender modification, will be AFFECTED if homeowners take forbearance"? I inquired and I was told that "Whatever principal reduction, low interest rate, term extension or balloon payment end of term" will be VOID/ cancelled and loan will be re-reviewed based to current financials." Yet next stimulus is feeding Billions to these monsters?

I read most of the forum, and i feel someone from "Bagels' that we must unite and create a systemic changes to help not only our group here who knows bust mostly those non-tech-y, and naive homeowners, susceptible to be fraudulently milked by greedy and savvy lawyers, as i have experienced before. Maybe adding an amendment to Cares Act to "allow all "eligible" homeowners with principal residence or vacation homes (not commercial), to equally avail of the benefits of CARES Act, without causing any impact to any previously modified trial/permanent loan. This amendment will not put these homeowners back to pre-G Recession sub-prime loan; thus continue with sustainable payment.

The second amendment i feel is necessary is for CARES Act to provide the banks to honor their part of NSMF Agreement that they will help modify loans since 2012-2019, as they signed on 2/12 with DOJ- Kamala Harris. This means to provide a Guideline - maybe CARES ACT 2, to allow homeowners, whose 2nd liens or 1st liens were "incompletely modified" and they are now being help by affiliate as "silent" loans, awaiting for positive equity that they can grab again, despite bgetting credited 1:1 to either extinguish or forgive the loan. Instead banks either sold or transfer to affiliate collection companies.

As most survived 10, 11 12 years of this loan mod horror, surviving coronavirus will give us strength and courage to recoup, recharge and resurge. Maybe if some will bring this to Senate/Congress, struggling homeowners will be the priority , if Feds want a true economic recovery. Time has change. Congress/Senate must know, and maybe this time they will have the "CourageTo Act" (which btw is a book written by Ben Bernanke (?) during the 2008 Great Recession, what do you think? I'm sure you guys have a lot of great ideas. You can revise or add . The key point is for all of us to unite and truly connect to those who can provide the solutions that we can feed them the truth of how the banks have been enriching themselves to the point of homeowners and consumers getting poorer with negative net worth, because the banks kept manipulating the mortgage servicing system with all their lawyers, and funds that Feds continually feed them crisis after crisis. Time for change- Now.
Speaking for myself, survival is not so much savvy as it is fricking belligerence. You made some cogent and insightful points and I love your attitude. I've been trying to stir up some outrage among homeowners for years now but the banks have us in such a stranglehold it's hard for people to stand up to them. Even - and this is the worst of it - even when the law backs us up. Generally that's because of the disparity of power and economics. It's a bit of a challenge taking on an adversary trillions of times more powerful than yourself and the law is too intricate a construct to cut right through things and arrive at justice with ease. Still, the mortgage crisis brought about Frank Dodd so the pandemic may also invoke change.

One problem on the face of it is the concept of forbearance and the fact it's not the applicable response to the problem. Forbearance is not a waiver and the "Lender" remains entitled to skipped payments. A pandemic does not require forbearance because it creates a situation by which contract performance is excused. In other words we don't need any favors, an event transpired and a government order was issued that rendered performance impossible - or impracticable - for many of us.

Cal. Civil Code § 1511

The want of performance of an obligation, or of an offer of performance, in whole or in part, or any delay therein, is excused by the following causes, to the extent to which they operate:

2. When it is prevented or delayed by an irresistible, superhuman cause, or by the act of public enemies of this state or of the United States, unless the parties have expressly agreed to the contrary.

This issue is also part of common law found in Restatement (Second) of Contracts dealing with impossibility or impracticability of performance.

Consequently, homeowners shouldn't have to go hat in hand to mortgage companies asking them to forbear from enforcing the contract because technically no default occurred. Non payment due to COVID-19 would breach neither the original loan nor a HAMP modified loan.