TRYING TO MODIFY? WE WANT YOUR OPINION: What matters more? Who owns your loan or getting an affordab

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What Matters More? Who owns your loan? or Getting an affordable payment and staying in your home

  • 1.) Getting a affordable payment and back on track

    Votes: 131 94.9%
  • 2.) Who owns your loan, and the chain of ownership

    Votes: 7 5.1%

  • Total voters
    138

kraftykrab

LoanSafe Member
Jan 27, 2014
1,255
170
63
In my case, I have followed what you say to do. The issue here is that Caliber refuses to follow the laws or provide any response whatsoever, aside from a fraudulent one. They do not care to follow the laws because there is no real bite to those laws. Think about it--RESPA carries a $2000 statutory penalty for a pattern of violations. So, if you have a $100K mortgage, and they are trying to foreclose, what's $2K to them? And the truth is that out of every 100 homeowners, maybe 2% try to assert their rights under the laws...and then, of that number, very few actually take any legal action to recover under the laws. It's a calculated risk on the part of the lenders and servicers, they know that just about everyone will do nothing. And even if we do pursue it, the penalties are so grossly mismatched that the laws offer no deterrence at all. My interest is in making sure that the proper party is involved....THEN and ONLY THEN would I consider a loan modification. It absolutely blows my mind that the banks get away with so little in the way of documentation, when everywhere else in the business world, documentation is mandatory.
 
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val4747

LoanSafe Member
Jan 5, 2010
529
49
28
Krafty as you can see it matters more to people to have an affordable payment than have proper documentation. This is why banks are doing what they are doing. For me I don't care how little the payment is I want to know that once payed for its mine not some ghost that comes out of the past and claims ownership. That is why I will fight this. I have had my home in the family 67 years. I fear that I have lost this home to no good scum bags.

If the people of the United States would get on the same page we wouldn't have have these problems. We would be a strong country again. We tend to just be so thankful for the little crumbs that we get.

Whats right is right. Whats wrong is wrong. I will go to my death bed to prove my point. I never asked for deceit. All I have asked is that my lender prove himself and than we can continue on. If you cannot prove to me you are the one entitled to payment I refuse to pay you.

Do people really give their money so freely no questions asked. Thats just unbelievable to me.
 
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Michael Naz

Michael Naz
Jan 9, 2011
2,965
38
48
Southern California
We understand what you are saying, and agree the rightful owner should be the owner but you don't have a right to make sure that you are paying the rightful owner.

you have to trust that the loan servicer is the rightful agent for the investor whomever that may be.

one thing to remember, they have all the time in the world, so remain patient, be diligent, document and don't throw in the towel.

it seems that yes 2% or less of homeowners try to assert their rights, because they have an idea of what their rights may in fact be.

yes the servicers and banks are in their own league when it comes to these things, almost as if they have their own laws and set of rules to follow and as long as they pay penalties, they can keep doing what they are doing.

just check out the latest on what wells fargo and capitol one are up to when it comes to subprime auto loans:

"...The pain is far more immediate for borrowers like Mr. Durham, the unemployed car buyer from Binghamton, N.Y., who stopped making his loan payments in March, only five months after buying the 2010 Mitsubishi Galant. A spokeswoman for Wells Fargo, which declined to comment on Mr. Durham citing a confidentiality policy, emphasized that the bank’s underwriting is rigorous, adding that “we have controls in place to help identify potential fraud and take appropriate action.”

The Mitsubishi was repossessed last month, leaving Mr. Durham without a car. But his debt ordeal may not be over.

Some lenders go after borrowers like Mr. Durham for the debt that still remains after a repossessed car is sold, according to court filings. Few repossessed cars fetch enough when they are resold to cover the total loan, the court documents show. To get the remainder, some lenders pursue the borrowers, which can leave them shouldering debts for years after their cars are gone.

But for now, Mr. Durham, who is disabled, has a more immediate problem.

“I just can’t get around without my car,” he said."
 

val4747

LoanSafe Member
Jan 5, 2010
529
49
28
Yep its about picking your battles. I guess its a trust game. For many years I went around with oh because the bank said so, or oh the insurance company said so, or my dad said so, or my school said so, I was told never to question as I had no reason to believe otherwise, keep every body dumbed down. What a fool I was. I know now to question and show proof of everything I do, not just say ok. Learned very hard lessons.
 

Free Wheelin

LoanSafe Member
Jul 20, 2013
62
12
8
I chose #2 but it is really not a viable option since all banks frequently sell their mortgage loans and change their servicers like I change clothes. If I could have just one honest bank (and no more than one honest servicer) for the life of my loan that would be my choice.

The banks and the servicers are just too dishonest nowadays and they often blackmail people into paying them money they don't even owe by threatening to foreclose upon them. So many horror stories out there from people who have NEVER been late on their mortgages and still get sucked into a never ending nightmare by no fault of their own.
 

cyadra

LoanSafe Member
Jun 9, 2014
80
8
8
50
We understand what you are saying, and agree the rightful owner should be the owner but you don't have a right to make sure that you are paying the rightful owner.

you have to trust that the loan servicer is the rightful agent for the investor whomever that may be.
Now that is a very interesting comment, because the only reason why I am in foreclosure is because the servicer had refused to tell me who owns my note, who is holding my note, and what trust (if any) my note is in. And until they do so, they won't receive a dime of my money. Finally, they tell me its WF, when I ask for proof they sent me a copy of my note copied from my county record with a stamp on it.

I never received notification that my loan was sold, the assignment on my mortgage was made a year and a half after I closed. Funny, I have a document in my closing papers stating that my note would be sold "shortly" and I will be informed when that happens, that was back in 2008 and I still have not been notified.

While I was going through the foreclosure process, I received letters stating that I needed to prove to WF that I had an FHA loan. Hello, if you really do own my note, then you should know that it is an FHA loan. I don't think its unrealistic to ask someone that claims I owe $200,000 to, to prove to me that you purchased my debt from my original lender, especially since they don't even know what kind of loan it was that they say they bought.

Oh and to think I am going to "trust" loan servicers after all the nonsense that they were allowed to get away with (and still are) including forging documents, knowingly placing false documents into court and county records, general lying to everyone, fraud, misrepresentation, etc., etc. then you have got to be out of your mind.

Why ANYONE would buy a house today through a mortgage is beyond me.
 

cyadra

LoanSafe Member
Jun 9, 2014
80
8
8
50
Now that is a very interesting comment, because the only reason why I am in foreclosure is because the servicer had refused to tell me who owns my note, who is holding my note, and what trust (if any) my note is in. And until they do so, they won't receive a dime of my money. Finally, they tell me its WF, when I ask for proof they sent me a copy of my note copied from my county record with a stamp on it.

I never received notification that my loan was sold, the assignment on my mortgage was made a year and a half after I closed. Funny, I have a document in my closing papers stating that my note would be sold "shortly" and I will be informed when that happens, that was back in 2008 and I still have not been notified.

While I was going through the foreclosure process, I received letters stating that I needed to prove to WF that I had an FHA loan. Hello, if you really do own my note, then you should know that it is an FHA loan. I don't think its unrealistic to ask someone that claims I owe $200,000 to, to prove to me that you purchased my debt from my original lender, especially since they don't even know what kind of loan it was that they say they bought.

Oh and to think I am going to "trust" loan servicers after all the nonsense that they were allowed to get away with (and still are) including forging documents, knowingly placing false documents into court and county records, general lying to everyone, fraud, misrepresentation, etc., etc. then you have got to be out of your mind.

Why ANYONE would buy a house today through a mortgage is beyond me.
Oh BTW..Michael, you owe me...lets say $300,000. You signed a loan agreement, and you have never paid me, so now I will sue you and take your property. Don't bother asking for a copy of the loan you took out with me because I destroyed it, but just be safe in knowing that you DID get a $300,000 loan from me and now I want my money. Feel free to pay me anytime.
 

kraftykrab

LoanSafe Member
Jan 27, 2014
1,255
170
63
We understand what you are saying, and agree the rightful owner should be the owner but you don't have a right to make sure that you are paying the rightful owner.

you have to trust that the loan servicer is the rightful agent for the investor whomever that may be.
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this statement. The BANKS tell us that we do not have the right to know, but the LAWS say otherwise. RESPA specifically states that they MUST notify the homeowner in writing every time a servicing transfer or a sale takes place, and that notification MUST inform the homeowner who the parties are. RESPA also requires that if I send written notice to a servicer, they have 10 days to respond with the correct name and address of the loan's actual owner.

Clearly, someone believes that I have the right to this information, or else we would not have a law that requires it.

one thing to remember, they have all the time in the world, so remain patient, be diligent, document and don't throw in the towel.
They actually do not have all the time in the world. While many do not realize it, there is a statute of limitations in every state when it comes to filing foreclosure. Most of us will not get to that date, but it does exist.

yes the servicers and banks are in their own league when it comes to these things, almost as if they have their own laws and set of rules to follow and as long as they pay penalties, they can keep doing what they are doing.
The really sad part is that most of the time, they do not even end up paying penalties....



This is really apples to oranges. Auto loans are a whole different beast and some states, like mine, have an entirely different set of laws that apply to auto loans, but not to other loans.



Again, apples and oranges. WF auto finance does not have anywhere near the dismal track record of Wells Fargo mortgage. It's not the best, but it's nowhere near as bad as the mortgage arm. Not to mention, the car buyer was unemployed and disabled....how "rigorous" can their policy really be if they financed an unemployed buyer who obviously could not afford the car in the first place.

Either way, not sure why you posted this article, as it does not seem to mention what we have been discussing at all. Please elaborate.
 

Free Wheelin

LoanSafe Member
Jul 20, 2013
62
12
8
Oh BTW..Michael, you owe me...lets say $300,000. You signed a loan agreement, and you have never paid me, so now I will sue you and take your property. Don't bother asking for a copy of the loan you took out with me because I destroyed it, but just be safe in knowing that you DID get a $300,000 loan from me and now I want my money. Feel free to pay me anytime.
Okay Cyadra, so lets say that I bought Michaels debt from you for $200,000 (a deal right?) and you gave me the original note that Michael signed.

I go out and make numerous copies of the note and then sell the loan to more than one investor giving each one a copy of the "original note". Then I go and shred the original note and there is now more than one investor who believes that he bought and now owns the debt.... who really owns the right to collect on the note now??

Many of our loans were sold to more than one pool of investors (securitized) and they were thereby given a copy of the original note ( because there can never be more than one original note). Now we have a concern and therefore need to know who owns the note (by holding the original note and mortgage).

This sets up a potential for a clouded title and more than one "owner" trying to collect on the note at some point. This is but one of many scenarios where it is important to know who actually owns your loan and who all thinks they own it.
 

val4747

LoanSafe Member
Jan 5, 2010
529
49
28
Cyadra, Free Wheelin, Krafty, I agree with you all. The statement Michael made"You don't have the right to make sure you are paying the rightful owner", correct me if I am wrong here, I took that statement from Michael that is what the banks tend to say or imply when they make the statements to the homeowners, not what Michael thinks.

Michael would you clarify? I would like to think that is what you meant. Because as the statements that Cyadra, Free Wheelin, Krafty has stated is the same mindset that I grew up with, just don't argue, ask questions just take me at my word. When you go out to get a mortgage, sign the paper work and you get the home knowing you will have paid it off, the majority have always felt that you get the original note in return. Not so, not now.

As I have stated in numerous letters, emails, phone calls to Chase (servicer) that I need to know who the owner is so I can make sure that I am paying the right entity, because I would be crazy if some other ghost comes out of the woodwork to claim my home as theirs.

Lets say there is 10-20 investors that do have a piece of your mortgage, what do you do now? How are they being paid for their investment???There are many questions that some of us have and when I owe someone 300,000.00 and continue to pay, and I do not know who or what I am dealing with I can honestly say "I WILL NEVER TAKE OUT A MORTGAGE LOAN AGAIN" its not the same as it was in the 40's 50's or even the 60's.

How about this example some people get told oh you can refinance in a couple of years to get a lower interest rate don't worry be happy. Then the two years comes around and they can't refinance. These people didn't do their research before hand and the banks hope you stay stupid, and dumbed down. What goes through my head is why would a bank refinance you at a lower rate, and if they do whats in it for them?

There is just a few of us out here that are pursuing what we know is the rightful way things should be. I am just glad that there is a few of us that can maybe make the difference for all. I know nobody cares what I think, I just know the path that I am on will allow me to rest in peace.
 
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kraftykrab

LoanSafe Member
Jan 27, 2014
1,255
170
63
Hey Michael....it is Dianna in Seattle. Definitely want an affordable payment....period.
Hello, Dianna....

If I may just ask you one question.....would you still want an affordable payment, even if that payment was going to a thief and not even affecting your mortgage at all?

http://mandelman.ml-implode.com/2014/02/homeowner-alert-scammer-masquerades-as-bank-offers-fake-loan-mods/

How happy was that woman when she got her "affordable payment"? Here's the thing....with so many different servicers out there, and so little paperwork, you have no idea how easily something like this can happen. If you pay the wrong entity, the money never makes it to your mortgage obligation.....and the REAL bank or servicer that has your loan will foreclose on you. All those affordable payments you made? They are gone.

Folks, PLEASE consider this. We are talking about the largest investment that many of us will make in our lifetime. This is NOT something to be taken so lightly that the details do not matter. I want an affordable payment, absolutely, but if the payment is cut in half, it only does you good if that payment goes to the right bank!
 

Alwayshopeful

LoanSafe Member
Jan 22, 2011
65
2
8
krafty.....I hear you....I really do, since I have had 4 years to contemplate my own situation in regards to the points you have provided. But, what are our options then?
Buy an RV and roam about freely
Rent/move in with family
Pay cash for a home- not where I live with RE being so high
????
Believe me.....my normally otherwise very optimistic self has seriously considered these options above (maybe not in that order ) for the very considerations addressed in your post (and a few others). I am exhausted after 4 years of not knowing, so at some point one must weigh the risk/reward. We love where we live and it has been "home" for a very long time for my family. So, had my biz not gone sideways back in 2008, we would still be paying on a loan that has the same issues that you address above and not even thinking about it, or probably not even knowing about it.

So, at some point you have to have some trust that you are moving in a direction in which support and guidance will be provided. It is a very personal decision even when the most optimistic of us try to make it objective/logical.

So, yes. I would like an opportunity for an affordable payment to stay in a home we love. We have to live somewhere, and the risk/reward works for us. Believe me when I say this has been a journey for us in contemplating all of the options, and yet I sit here 4 years later still waiting for an affordable payment. However, we KNOW that we may be forced to choose one of the other options very soon in lieu of an affordable payment option, and we know and trust that whatever happens it will be in our highest and best interest. It is what it is.

Good luck to those in the same boat....it is personal even though the facts surrounding our decision are not.

Maybe Michael could add additional options to this poll.....RV roaming freely or???? Lol. You gotta have some humor about this or you will get sucked down the drain.
 

pennygram

working for consumers
Sep 29, 2010
583
88
28
Auto loan issues and their remedies are way way way past time to be addressed.

"Few repossessed cars fetch enough when they are resold to cover the total loan"

This is true because the selling system of repoed cars is flawed. Capital one or any car finance company repoes the car without any proper review of any defenses the owner has.

Most times the owner is calling the finance company and being told they are working out a repayment plan to catch up the loan at the same time they have sent the repo order out to repo the car. The owners guard is let down in the middle of the night the repo man sneaks in and takes the vehicle. There has been absolutely no due process for the owner. This is been going on for countless years and when you question the system the answer is we been doing this for years with no problems.

I know I have been told by both Harley-Davidson and regions bank that I need to make my payment now and they will see if I am approved for an extension. Of course me being me I wonder what that means. And only when they quit playing with words did I give them the payment.

Once the car is repoed it is "usually" cleaned out of any personal possessions and immediately shipped off to an auction selling house. There is absolutely minimal at best mitigation of damages done by the finance company.

Once at the auction house it is so to the highest bidder.

This process as described above does not bring any type of real value. And let's not forget these auto auction houses are usually only opened to licensed dealers so it is in no way shape or form any public auction where someone can come in, review the car and place a proper bid. We really need finance companies to be forced to dispose of vehicles in a fair manner and shipping the car off to an auction house to bring in piddly money is not fair by any stretch of the imagination.

Maybe now someone will finally say Hey Houston we have a problem
 
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kraftykrab

LoanSafe Member
Jan 27, 2014
1,255
170
63
krafty.....I hear you....I really do, since I have had 4 years to contemplate my own situation in regards to the points you have provided. But, what are our options then?
Well, the thing is this---it really depends on the specifics of your situation. But the thing I am trying to get across here is that often times, the homeowner HAS options....they just are not aware of them! If you have been fighting the battle for a loan mod or a lower payment for 4 years, all of your energy has been focused there. That makes it very easy for a whole lot to sli[ past without you noticing. The only difference between what I have done and waht you have done is that I researched the laws and intend to hold them to strict proof of every detail. This originally began as a search for an affordable payment for us. But when I started noticing the sheer volume of fraud and corruption we were dealing with in these lenders and servicers, I could not take part in it the way they wanted me to. If you go and read my thread at the link below, you can find out what has been happening and what I have done about it so far.

http://www.loansafe.org/forum/threads/has-anyone-here-used-the-concept-of-the-implied-covenant-of-good-faith-and-fair-dealing.88750/

I'm just trying to point out to everyone that there ARE options aside from just seeking a loan mod. And hey, there's nothing wrong with seeking a loan mod--as long as you know who owns the loan and you are comfortable with that information. In my case, the new servicer falsified documents, and told me the names of multiple trusts, claiming that each one is the one that bought the loan from the OC last year. In fact, while a loan mod is a suitable goal if you know they are truly the right party, it is in fact your right and your duty to verify who actually legally owns the loan if you do NOT know. We have to stop playing this game the way the banks want us to play it--they try to rush us into loan mods without allowing us the information or the time to contemplate what is happening. If you sign a loan mod with a servicer that has no legal right to your loan, there are multiple bad consequences for you, and no good results. They do not tell you that part.

So, at some point you have to have some trust that you are moving in a direction in which support and guidance will be provided. It is a very personal decision even when the most optimistic of us try to make it objective/logical.
For me, I will trust that as soon as the servicer provides legitimate paperwork, that is verified to be legit. And not one second sooner. And why would I? Why would anyone consent to paying the wrong people for their mortgage? I sure will not. Yes, it is a personal decision, but too many people have allowed the banks to tell them what has to happen. The BANKS have no interest in the truth on this--so why do we count on them to tell us truth? In my thread that I linked above, it is discussed that the servicer just sent me a "pre-approved trial payment plan" for a loan mod. It would save me about $160 per month. I know many people would jump at this....I'm not. Know why? Because of the fine print. They are trying to shut me up! They are trying to get me to stop fighting them! They figure that they can fire off a bogus loan mod approval--when I have not even filled out any application paperwork--and they thought I would jump at it. But heres the truth that they wont tell you--the moment you sign that document, you have created a NEW indebtedness...to THEM. And here's the thing--the fine print states that this is a trial only--that I could make these three payments and still be denied a permanent mod. So all they need to do is get me to sign it, get me to make those three payments....then, deny a permanent mod and sue me for foreclosure! This will have handed them evidence on a silver platter!! They would then take this signed agreement and proof of my payments to the court, and say "Your Honor, Mr. Krafty obviously admits that he owes us this money. Look here, he signed this agreement to pay us and here is proof of his payments!"....then BAM, they get their foreclosure. And every one of my disputes is gone. It's not going to work for me to dispute the amount of a debt that I just signed a form consenting to owing and agreeing to pay it back!

So, yes. I would like an opportunity for an affordable payment to stay in a home we love. We have to live somewhere, and the risk/reward works for us. Believe me when I say this has been a journey for us in contemplating all of the options, and yet I sit here 4 years later still waiting for an affordable payment. However, we KNOW that we may be forced to choose one of the other options very soon in lieu of an affordable payment option, and we know and trust that whatever happens it will be in our highest and best interest. It is what it is.
I sincerely wish you luck in your quest...and can only hope that something I have said here prompts you to do some digging before you sign anything. Nothing wrong with a legit modification...as long as it is legit and the servicer is the right party.

And keep that humor too....I have been in this fight myself for over three years now too, I know what you mean.
 

val4747

LoanSafe Member
Jan 5, 2010
529
49
28
Krafty you are absolutely correct.

What you wrote is exactly how I feel. I ask this question every day. If these investors want to make money I would think Chase would tell me who they are and prove to me one of them has the Deed of Trust and Note so I, ME makes the decision to continue to pay as long as I have proof. I will not, cannot, pay to some entity that is a figment of MY IMAGINE nation. Its just a black hole.

Some people just want the instant gratification and worry about it later. Good for them. They are doing what they think is best. I have never ever been comfortable with the unknowns. I deal with facts, absolutes, proven.

As long as no one comes and murders me I figure I have done what truly matters to me. I can be happy in a tent with my 4 dogs and son.

I will not be a serf as the haves want.
 
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kraftykrab

LoanSafe Member
Jan 27, 2014
1,255
170
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Well, you need to think like the bankers do. They do not care about "making money" the way we think they do. Think about it....they make copies of the "original note" and sell it around, which is actually fraud against the investors, but they dont care because they want the money. So, how many times over do you think that "original note" has actually been paid for? Better question--how many times the face value of that note do you think that all involved stand to collect? I would not be surprised if the note is paid off three or four times throughout this process. And then, they try to take your house too! Chase does not care one bit if those investors make money off of your payments or not. Chase and the investors are separate entities, and each one only cares about their own money. So they scam us, and even scam each other....all in the name of the almighty dollar. And each side knows that the other is scamming them, but they dont really care as long as the money keeps flowing. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

A promissory note is a negotiable instrument. It's basically like writing a check. You write out the amount, sign it, and present it. The holder of that check can then present it for payment. But imagine this---suppose I wrote you a check. Could you then make a COPY of that check and then try to present THAT to the bank for payment? What would they tell you? of course, they would tell you to get lost! A copy is not sufficient. And yet, that's exactly the pill that they got America to swallow in order to cover up their greedy lack of record keeping. They use a copy of your promissory note, claim "oh, we lost the original, so this will do"....and then the courts force the money out of American pockets....or force Americans out of their homes. We need to wake up to the nonsense that the fat cats have been playing us with.
 

Free Wheelin

LoanSafe Member
Jul 20, 2013
62
12
8
I think you pretty much summed it up the way I see it too kraftykrab. Our loans were insured and the banks tell us that we cannot apply for a loan modification unless we are 60 or 90 days delinquent on our payments..... that is the way they collect the insurance on the loan and then you will enter modification hell and then they will take your house and sell it again and again. It's the way they conduct their business nowadays and it is very profitable. They make a lot more money on those of us who are behind on our payments than those who are current (even if we never make another payment as long as we live). They sell our loans over and over again and again so that they can collect on insurance premiums for default.

I have a friend who doubled up on his payments for 7 or 8 years trying to pay off his loan ahead of time and then he got sick and could not work for some time. He thought that he was way ahead on his mortgage so if he missed a few payments it was no big deal. WRONG! They took his house from him before he new it or could do anything about it. Say bye bye to all your equity and so much for paying on time every month and sending us an extra couple grand a month for 7 years! They kicked him out and robbed him of his home and are now chasing him for a deficiency which he clearly should not owe since he was way ahead and had tons of equity in his home.

I will never again in my lifetime buy another home unless I can pay cash for it (and have a proper title search done prior). The banks should never be allowed to get away with these kinds of atrocities. Shame on the banks and shame on the courts that allow these kinds of things to happen!
 
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isisis

LoanSafe Member
Jun 22, 2010
1,839
258
83
North bay
I want all of the above: affordable payments, my home and accountability on the part of the bank. This doesn't seem like an either or situation. Loan modification to affordable terms should have been mandatory as well as documentation of proof of ownership.

I think the question should be turned around on them. They know we took out loans, why do they require endless documentation to agree to affordable payments? Because it's more profitable for them to lure us into default and use the modification process as a mechanism to foreclose.
 

Tazzy

LoanSafe Member
Jul 28, 2016
6
2
3
I want both. I want to stay in the home on the property (3.5 acres) that my husband and I cleared (1.5 acres) by hand, with blood sweat and tears. I want to stay in the home I designed, contracted and built.

But I also want to know, who owns the note, what happened when I signed
That loan in 2006 that I thought was a regular mortgage loan. I want to know if my title is clouded, what fraud and deceit and who profited illegally.

Because this is my home and I have been honest, hard working and responsible in my dealings and I want to know who hasnt.

I still see the face of that loan broker as he smiled at us as he sold us up the river.

I want both and until I get both, I shall not sleep.
 
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