Non-borrower income question

Chadecoen

LoanSafe Member
Mar 3, 2011
17
0
0
According to the handbook:

5.1.9 Non-Borrower Household Income
A non-borrower is someone who is not on the original note (and may or may not be on the original security instrument), but whose income has been relied upon to support the mortgage payment. Non-borrower household income that may be considered for HAMP qualification must come from someone who resides in the residence. Examples include a non-borrower spouse, parent, child or a non-relative, but in each case, a person who shares in the occupancy of the home and provides some support for the household expenses. Servicers should include non-borrower household income in monthly gross income if it is voluntarily provided by the borrower and if, in the servicer’s business judgment, that the income reasonably can continue to be relied upon to support the mortgage payment. Non-borrower household income included in the monthly gross income must be documented and verified by the servicer using the same standards for verifying a borrower’s income. If income is being used for a non-borrower, the servicer should use only the income that the non-borrower will contribute to the mortgage.

I underlined that last part because I have been approved for a HAMP trial and was misled a little about my wife's income. They figured my numbers based on both my income and my non-borrower wife's income. The only problem is that not all of her income is used for the mortgage but they asked for her stubs and, well, like an idiot, I provided them and surprise, surprise, they calculated everything on both our incomes.

Is there anyway to make them re-figure the numbers now? Or run with what they gave me? I mean, if I am just going to be told to piss off after the trial ends then shouldn't I try and look the poorest on paper as possible (which isn't hard to do really)? I mean, I know you can't game the system but I think I could possibly get a better offer if they only used the correct amount of my wife's income and not the whole thing.

Thanks,
Chad
 

Moe Bedard

Call 1-800-779-4547
Staff member
Loan Safe Mortgage
Aug 10, 2007
26,851
466
1,000
49
Southern California
www.loansafe.org
Hi Chad,

The reason they do this is because you both pay all the bills in the home or as 99% of married couple do.

In addition, even though this is HAMP and the guidelines, it is not a law and there is absolutely no penalty or legality that says they must follow these said guidelines. My experience is that they rarely, if ever follow them. My take is that they feel you should be lucky or count your blessings for even getting help from them.

They do not say that, but after 4 years, it is painfully obvious that HAMP is never followed and banks make it very hard for anyone to get a loan modification.
 

Chadecoen

LoanSafe Member
Mar 3, 2011
17
0
0
WOW, straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. Thanks Moe. I haven't said it yet, but thanks for your reply and all of the replies that I have read of yours and learned from (and all the other folks replies also) and thanks for all the thankless work you do keeping this site going. Thanks for all the behind the scenes stuff you have to do to keep this place going that people don't have a clue about. Basically, thanks for helping us STICK IT TO THE MAN!

Well, I hope they stick to one more rule from the hand book from here on out. I am current on my mortgage now and so I hope they follow that whole thing about continuing to report me as current to the credit peeps. But, I doubt it.

That is exactly how the rep acts, like I should be happy I got this far. He was, and stated as much, that he was amazed that I got a trial since I wasn't behind. So I am fully expecting to be kicked to the curb after or during the trial but we will see.


Chad
 

alston1421

LoanSafe Member
Nov 18, 2010
105
2
0
Reston, VA
This is useful info, thanks Moe. Does anyone know if v2.0 of the HAMP handbook is still the most current one? I know HAMP came out with a supplemental directive (among many) 10-15 as of 2/1/11... but have there also been updates to the handbook?

Chad - If I were you, I would count your blessings and ROLE with what you were given assuming its not ridiculously unaffordable, I'm assuming its not a huge deal breaker from what you suggest. I've been in this HAMPster wheel for 21 months and have yet to been offered a single thing - - all I get is that I have insufficient income even though the REST report clearly shows I qualify.
 

Moe Bedard

Call 1-800-779-4547
Staff member
Loan Safe Mortgage
Aug 10, 2007
26,851
466
1,000
49
Southern California
www.loansafe.org
You're most welcome Chad!

You have to hope for the best and expect the worst. Then at the same time plan for B, C and D. Do that and you will live more confidently.

During the trial period it is often treated as a partial payment. Hence, you will most likely be reported late.

Good luck bro!

@Alston - To be honest with you, I do not pay attention to any of that anymore. I have seen over 1,000 plus physical loan modifications and not one says it is a HAMP loan mod. My thoughts are that it a loan mod id a loan mod and HAMP is just smoke and mirrors since servicers rarely follow them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: [email protected]

Chadecoen

LoanSafe Member
Mar 3, 2011
17
0
0
I so meant to write this earlier but family got home and homework and dinner and all that......just as I was hitting the "post quick reply" button on my last post the phone rang......it was my loan preservation specialist (if you have read any of my other babbling posts you probably know that I do not have a lot of confidence in the guy) anyway, he wanted to make sure I was still on board to send in my first payment (due April 1st) and wanted to know if I wanted to set up auto pay or mail a check (I had just re-read the hamp guidelines about encouraging auto payment methods, BUT he wasn't pushy and was so casual about it if I hadn't just read about it, his offer to auto pay would have gone unnoticed). I, of course, told him it would be mailed registered receipt. While I had him on the phone I hit him right between the eyes (verbally) with "how many loan mods have been denied after the trial period since you started?" to which he responded (very confidently I might ad, knowing that he usually has to ask someone before responding to any questions, he is a total new loan guy or just left radio shack or stocking shelves or whatever) "my team (I guess they work in teams in his office?) has processed around 200 mods that I know about and only 10 have not gone perm. and they didn't due to the borrower NOT lender" He also stated that he was a little puzzled by my question because as far as he knows or has had experience with, once the trial payments are made he just runs the paperwork (same papers that are already approved) by the same underwriter to be stamped approved perm and I get a packet in the mail to sign and return. I have to say, in all my dealings with this guy, this is the only thing he has sounded like he knew the answer to. I mean it, he doesn't know what time it is without placing me on hold and asking his boss but he knew the answer to my question. It was very disarming for me. I have maintained that his being "new" and not knowing anything was by design and not accident but (am I being too hopeful here) maybe, just maybe, this thing will get done. Of course I will keep everyone posted and continue to read read read and try to stay ahead of the curve balls that are bound to be headed my way.

Thanks everyone,
Chad

Oh yeah, I do have the difference (well, almost) in trial payment and full payments hidden under the mattress so if they kick me out later I can, hopefully, catch the loan up and my credit takes a hit and pretty much everything else stays the same. I have been planning this since Jan 1st and tucking away every red cent I can find in case this thing goes sideways! Then I'll start all over with the report!
 

cheri

LoanSafe Member
Jul 14, 2009
477
1
16
According to the handbook:

5.1.9 Non-Borrower Household Income
A non-borrower is someone who is not on the original note (and may or may not be on the original security instrument), but whose income has been relied upon to support the mortgage payment. Non-borrower household income that may be considered for HAMP qualification must come from someone who resides in the residence. Examples include a non-borrower spouse, parent, child or a non-relative, but in each case, a person who shares in the occupancy of the home and provides some support for the household expenses. Servicers should include non-borrower household income in monthly gross income if it is voluntarily provided by the borrower and if, in the servicer’s business judgment, that the income reasonably can continue to be relied upon to support the mortgage payment. Non-borrower household income included in the monthly gross income must be documented and verified by the servicer using the same standards for verifying a borrower’s income. If income is being used for a non-borrower, the servicer should use only the income that the non-borrower will contribute to the mortgage.

I underlined that last part because I have been approved for a HAMP trial and was misled a little about my wife's income. They figured my numbers based on both my income and my non-borrower wife's income. The only problem is that not all of her income is used for the mortgage but they asked for her stubs and, well, like an idiot, I provided them and surprise, surprise, they calculated everything on both our incomes.

Is there anyway to make them re-figure the numbers now? Or run with what they gave me? I mean, if I am just going to be told to piss off after the trial ends then shouldn't I try and look the poorest on paper as possible (which isn't hard to do really)? I mean, I know you can't game the system but I think I could possibly get a better offer if they only used the correct amount of my wife's income and not the whole thing.

Thanks,
Chad
Moe, a rep told me on the phone today, that a non borrower income of a fiance(because we didnt want to say Ex girlfriend) who contributes a certain amount, may be looked at as the same as the borrower, where her whole income would be included , being she lives in the house with the borrower, the rep said, when it goes to underwriting, they will most likely use the whole income, which will screw me up and not qualify us for hamp, reason being denied the first time, gross 7000. yet I do not even pay the mortgage, he struggles on his measely gross 3000 a month, I struggle with my finances. I would consider us lower middle class living in California and the cost of living. I said I contribute 1,350, or he wouldnt make it. I guess its the same as paying the bills, being i do pay the utilities, he pays mortgage, 2 seperate accounts, no money is shared at all between us. pretty much like a roomate situation.
Is there anyway I can prevent them from using my whole income to his gross ? we are Ex's, living under same roof with the kids.
 

Cat Damiano

Mortgage Wars
Sep 10, 2007
10,541
39
48
Colorado
www.loansafe.org
cheri,


The issue that you are having had already been discussed in another thread by members that have gone through the exact same predicament that you are having, including myself. The problem that you are going to continue to have is that your income as a whole was already voluntarily submitted as a part of the modification package originally without the affidavit of the actual gross amount that you do contribute. If I were you I would try to open up a dispute. If you received any type of denial letter there should be a number to dispute the denial if you felt the information used was not correct.
You can also try contacting HOPE to explain that the servicer is not taking into consideration the portion of your income used toward the mortgage, but instead using your whole gross income, and see if they can intervene to escalate your file for a dispute.
Stop Foreclosure - Foreclosure Help - Homeownership Preservation Foundation