Forged, Robo-signed, Mix Matched Signatures?

freedomwon

LoanSafe Member
Oct 30, 2010
2,794
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38
California
Thanks hibiscus - I'm actually going to head out for some "fun" tonight. I will try late tonight or tomorrow & let you know my thoughts. Thanks again. Have a good nite!
 

freedomwon

LoanSafe Member
Oct 30, 2010
2,794
23
38
California
Hi hibiscus - I took a look & can see the participants along with the register of actions. I also see both K. Mercado & T. Sevillano named in this case. Looks like I can't view the documents online ie; original complaint filed, motions etc. To do that I would need to either go to the courthouse & view the files myself or call the clerk, have her pull the case file & go from there to see what might be beneficial. I may just call the clerk on Mon & inquire as to how many pages the complaint is & what might be in that file that contains original signatures of K. Mercado & T. Sevillano. Cost for copies is 50 cents per page + $15 flat fee for the clerks assistance.

I see the "case type" is filed under business tort. Business torts can include fraud, breach of fiduciary duty, unfair competition and misrepresentation. Now, you've done it hibiscus! You've lit a fire under my ***. This prompts me to search court records in my county (Merced) or even within 90 miles to see what I can come up with.

I have one other new development to report. I check the MERS site for my own loan on a monthly basis just to see if there's any changes to my loan status. I checked it last night & discovered my loan status on my 1st (BofA loan servicer) has been changed to inactive status. And yes, it now requires a social security number if you want to see who the investor is. I chose not to input that. What I find interesting is I've sent 2 written requests CMRRR to MERS requesting specific chain of title information. At the time both letters were sent, my loan was active in their system. Now it's been changed to "inactive status". I suspect this may be deliberate on their part, but how can I prove it? My loan was "active" in their system at the time I made my request. Have I been stonewalled? I'm not feeling too hopeful I'll get a response back from MERS.

hibiscus - my advice in this matter to you & anyone else trying to research their loan in the MERS system is make yourself a printout. Because what you see on screen today may very well change tomorrow!
 

Jeffrey L. Shurtliff

LoanSafe Member
Dec 4, 2010
3,823
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I have one other new development to report. I check the MERS site for my own loan on a monthly basis just to see if there's any changes to my loan status. I checked it last night & discovered my loan status on my 1st (BofA loan servicer) has been changed to inactive status. And yes, it now requires a social security number if you want to see who the investor is. I chose not to input that. What I find interesting is I've sent 2 written requests CMRRR to MERS requesting specific chain of title information. At the time both letters were sent, my loan was active in their system. Now it's been changed to "inactive status". I suspect this may be deliberate on their part, but how can I prove it? My loan was "active" in their system at the time I made my request. Have I been stonewalled? I'm not feeling too hopeful I'll get a response back from MERS.
Of course this is dileberate, they do this stuff to wear you down. You have before them legal and proper questions that they can't answer legally. It is part of the fraud. I call it: [ what happened, what loan, what ya talkin about? where did your house go now? ect....] Keep an eye out for their legal manuevers.
Don't let this get you down, you have done some great work here. Just when you think it is over it ain't.
 

hibiscus

LoanSafe Member
Sep 19, 2011
146
2
18
California
I also check MERS. I do have several printouts for the past year. I believe after they filed the last substitution in the county records they changed my status to inactive because BNY Mellon is not an active member of Mers. In fact, I was on there last night as well, and after that I started a new thread. No responses yet, but lots of eyes. These little things are significant to each individual homeowner. It helps track their moves and substantiates the deception. I also recommend printing out what you see because it may not be there again in the same way.

As far as the substitution, I find the following info very interesting...

MORTGAGE-BACKED TRUSTS, CLOSED BEFORE 2008, USING MORTGAGE ASSIGNMENTS SIGNED IN 2011

Aames Mortgage Investment Trusts
ABFC Trusts
Ace Securities Corp. Home Equity Loan Trusts
American Home Mortgage Assets Trusts
American Home Mortgage Investment Trusts
Ameriquest Mortgage Securities, Inc. Trusts
Argent Securities, Inc. Trusts
Banc of America Alternative Loan Trusts
Banc of America Funding Trusts
Bear Stearns Alt-A Trusts
Bear Stearns ARM Trusts
Bear Stearns Asset-Backed Securities Trusts
BNC Mortgage Loan Trusts
Carrington Home Equity Loan Trusts
Carrington Mortgage Loan Trusts
Citigroup Mortgage Loan Trusts
CSFB Trusts
CSMC Trusts
CWABS Trusts
CWALT Trusts
CWMBS Trusts
Deutsche Bank Alt-A Securities Inc. Mortgage Loan Trusts
First Franklin Mortgage Loan Trusts
First NLC Trusts
Fremont Home Loan Trusts
GSAA Home Equity Trusts
GSAMP Trusts
GSR Mortgage Loan Trusts
Harborview Mortgage Loan Trusts
HSI Asset Securitization Corp. Trusts
IndyMac IMSC Mortgage Loan Trusts
IndyMac INDX Mortgage Loan Trusts
Long Beach Mortgage Loan Trusts
MASTR Alternative Loan Trusts
MASTR Asset-Backed Securities Trusts
Morgan Stanley Capital I, Inc. Trusts
NatIxis Real Estate Capital Trusts
New Century Home Equity Loan Trusts
New Century Mortgage Loan Trusts
Nomura Home Equity Loan Trusts
NovaStar Home Equity Loan Trusts
NovaStar Mortgage Funding Trusts
Option One Mortgage Loan Trusts
RALI Trusts
RAMP Trusts
Residential Asset Securitization Trusts
Saxon Asset Securities Trusts
Securitized Asset-Backed Receivables Trusts
Soundview Home Loan Trusts
Structured Asset Investment Loan Trusts
Structured Asset Mort. Investments II Trusts
Structured Asset Mort. Investments II, Inc. Bear Stearns Alt-A Trusts
WaMu Trusts

So, as I said the recent substitution is suspect. This list was posted by an attorney researching this whole mess. No affiliation nor endorsement here, but very telling. Don't you think?

I did not receive an answer from Mers either, but they did sign for the letter. Do any of the recent docs filed in your case have the 3300 sw 34th ave ocala, fl address on them? That is an interesting google earth search. I see that many docs do. Peek at that.

Freedomwon, did you ever check the status of your loan at the BNY Trust reporting website? I think it was one of the first threads I started. I found your trust there, too. I don't have much luck posting reports or I'd attach it for you.

As far as the case, I believe it was settled out of court. That would be easily confirmed as well.
 

freedomwon

LoanSafe Member
Oct 30, 2010
2,794
23
38
California
hibiscus - I went over to the other thread you started & commented there.
I did not receive an answer from Mers either, but they did sign for the letter. Do any of the recent docs filed in your case have the 3300 sw 34th ave ocala, fl address on them?
No, none of my docs have that address on them. All my recent filed docs have an address of 1800 Tapo Canyon, Simi Valley, Ca. I took a peak at that Florida address on google earth. Hey, at least if you get hungry (on that vacant plot of land in the middle of nowhere) looks like you could walk to Chuck E. Cheese or Hooters! So take your pick! Where did you come across that address? That's pretty funny!!! Again, how do they get away with these shenanigans?

Freedomwon, did you ever check the status of your loan at the BNY Trust reporting website?
I did take a look back when you first posted the step by step instructions. I was fascinated. I actually found my loan # listed in there. I should make a printout, since I haven't done that yet.
 

hibiscus

LoanSafe Member
Sep 19, 2011
146
2
18
California
Hi Freedomwon!

That address is on my Substitution of Trustee for MERS. I will post it so you can see it. The weird thng is that I did a search of the address and it looks to be a common address used in the Substitutions of many others. I did an reverse address look up and it brings up an individual under the address.

I'm glad you found it. I noticed that the reports were not submitted into the system untl Aug 2008, one month after BOFA offically took over CW. I wonder if it is because CW never reported anything. This would be well after many of the trusts were supposed to be closed. When you get a chance download all the reports into a zip file. That way you can scan through the monthly reports so you can see when they reported the FC to BNY Mellon.

I received a copy of my Note and it doesn't show any indorsements only a blank allonge. I'm not sure if I should respond and question it just to get a written response now or wait and send a VOD. Any thoughts?

I will look at the other thread for Mers response.
 

freedomwon

LoanSafe Member
Oct 30, 2010
2,794
23
38
California
Hi Hibiscus -
When you get a chance download all the reports into a zip file. That way you can scan through the monthly reports so you can see when they reported the FC to BNY Mellon.
That's an excellent idea. I will definitely do that. I remember being very intrigued with all the information I found in that report but I failed to save it to a file. SHAME ON ME! I know better than that. Figured I'd get back to that site at a later date.

I received a copy of my Note and it doesn't show any indorsements only a blank allonge. I'm not sure if I should respond and question it just to get a written response now or wait and send a VOD. Any thoughts?
I received a copy of my note as well & same as you, no endorsements whatsoever. I believe what BofA did was have their title company pull a photocopy of the note on file from when the note was originated. Well, heck, anyone can do that. That doesn't prove they have the "original wet signature note".

I waited to bring that issue to light until I disputed the debt. Here's what I specifically said:

Under the original Deed of Trust, the original lender is Countrywide aka Americas Wholesale Lender. There has been no valid assignment and chain of title from the original lender to (CWALT 2007-2B) G2 as recorded in the county recorder’s office as required by Californias recording laws. Therefore, we are disputing that (CWALT 2007-2B) G2 is the actual owner of the obligation without further proof.

We are demanding that you provide proof of the chain of title from the original lender to (CWALT 2007-2B) G2 through the production of a copy of a CURRENT certified copy of my promissory note through named endorsements as governed under UCC Article 3 § 3-205.

I submitted the dispute back in July. You can read the entire letter on the thread my recent letter to BofA part 2. I have not received a response from them since they acknowledged receipt of my dispute & indicated it required further research.

I don't have a strong feeling if you should ask now or wait. It's a tough call. It seems every time I try to uncover something information is no longer there, disappears, it's concealed etc etc.

By the way, that poem you had posted......I read & re-read it a number of times. Thank you. It gives me inspiration.
 

hibiscus

LoanSafe Member
Sep 19, 2011
146
2
18
California
Good for you! It is important that everyone take note and do the same when they come across any information regarding their personal information or parties relative to their situation.

Yeah, it is a tough call considering that either way you get the same result. Perhaps BNY Mellon would be a better source of information.

You are so welcome, Freedowon! The words of the Star Spangle Banner need to continue to be an inspiration in times of "war". Keeping a glimpse of this mighty symbol serves as a reminder of victory.

Thank you for being an inspiration to me! Your guidance and knowledge not only give me the strength to move forward, but are also, a living example of that humanity and compassion still exist. So often it is difficult to discuss these issues and many retreat and cut themselves off from the world. I truly feel this site is a gift. It offers a reconnect and safe place where an extended hand awaits the weary. I agree with Tomeason, he sums up your abilities very nicely. Greatness recognizes greatness, you know.
 

hibiscus

LoanSafe Member
Sep 19, 2011
146
2
18
California
Freedomwon-

I contacted the attorney in that case I mentioned to you. I questioned the sanction handed down re the proof of service on a hunch and it proved to be true. He couldn't find the correct address for TS and KM, so I gave them to him. I am hoping he will forward a copy of the complaint. He is especailly focused on the legality of the documents. He is actually a very cool dude and said he would share any information he discovers. I wanted to share that with you. Cool huh?
 

freedomwon

LoanSafe Member
Oct 30, 2010
2,794
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38
California
hibiscus - Did you provide him both addresses for K.M.? Your letter was signed for at 1 address & mine was signed for at another address. I hope that information will prove to be beneficial to him. If your work schedule allows, you may want to watch this attorney in that specific case in court. And get yourself a good look at K.M. while you’re at it! I believe T.S. held a notary license in the past in Ventura County. I’d need to go back & look.

Thanks for the compliments in your post. It’s people like you that give me that fighting spirit to keep moving forward & digging for the truth. You also challenge my thought process & inspire me to reach for a higher level of understanding. I’m continually intellectually stimulated by the complexities of this whole mortgage mess. In some crazy way, I find the whole thing extremely fascinating. The more I learn, the more I want to know.
 

hibiscus

LoanSafe Member
Sep 19, 2011
146
2
18
California
Freedomwon-

That is a great idea! I will ask him if he can inform me when they will appear to testify. I believe the next hearing is re sanctions. I did give him both. He was unable to serve them, so I gave him a copy of that journal entry you provided, as well. He did mention what you observed that the address for KM was diferent than what the sec of state had. In lieu of the current circumstances they should really get on top of that. It could make a difference in many cases and whether or not they get kicked out of court or not as we have clearly seen here.

My pleasure! I like to live my life saying how I feel at the moment. I lost my father at 29, and owe to be able to go back. You often think things and never say them, perhaps thinking you'll always have the chance or that they already know. It's only when you can no longer do so, that you realize you have a ton of warm fuzzys you never handed out. And even though we were extremely close, I was left with a stack of little gifts I never gave him.

I shared with Tomeason, that I have a quest for justice that nothing will quiet. It's that whole balance thing. I can't function off kilter. And then there is the research thing. I've become quite good. I need to market it somehow. LOL
 

hibiscus

LoanSafe Member
Sep 19, 2011
146
2
18
California
By the way, did you read about th ecouple in Texas in foreclosure because their title was never properly transferred? Foreclosure, and they never missed a payment. The govt at all levels has been nonchalant for far too long. I believe we are at the brink of action. The injustice isn't a secondary issue anymore. Plus, the Constitution is a remarkable document. When all parties wake up from the shock and fear, perhaps we can remember we live in a democracy, that united, can force the govt to uphold rights and punish wrongs. We haven't reached that point...yet
 

freedomwon

LoanSafe Member
Oct 30, 2010
2,794
23
38
California
hibiscus -
By the way, did you read about th ecouple in Texas in foreclosure because their title was never properly transferred?
Yes, I do remember reading about that case. It's a terrible injustice!
 

calgirl67

LoanSafe Member
Sep 2, 2009
640
4
0
Do You Have Forged Documents? Robosigned? Mix Matched Signatures?


You are entitled to copies of the notary journal entries and with this evidence, you may be able to prove the FRAUD.


All state notaries should have a handbook. Here’s the 20ll Handbook for Ca.
http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-handbook-2011.pdf


You can download the list of Ca. registered notaries here:
Notary Public Listing - Notary Public - California Secretary of State


Once you’ve downloaded the list, you will find their name, address, commission number & the expiration date.


For both a jurat and an acknowledgment, the notary public must certify to the identity of the signer. (Civil Code section 1189 and Government Code section 8202)


Upon written request of any member of the public, which request shall include the name of the parties, the type of document, and the month and year in which notarized, the notary shall supply a photostatic copy of the line item representing the requested transaction.


Upon receiving a request for a copy of a transaction pursuant to subdivision (c) of Section 8206, the notary shall respond to the request within 15 business days after receipt of the request and either supply the photostatic copy requested or acknowledge that no such line item exists.


§ 8214.2. Fraud relating to deed of trust; single-family residence; felony (a) A notary public who knowingly and willfully with intent to defraud performs any notarial act in relation to a deed of trust on real property consisting of a single-family residence containing not more than four dwelling units, with knowledge that the deed of trust contains any false statements or is forged, in whole or in part, is guilty of a felony.


If you suspect Notary Fraud in California please contact:


STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Secretary of State
Notary Public Section
PO Box 942877
Sacramento, California 94277-0001
(916) 653-3595

I sent a letter CMRRR to the Notary & a CC to the Secretary of State. The Notary has her home address listed with the Secretary of State & will not sign for my letter. Things that make you go hmmm....... It's an inside job as the notary listing shows she works for BofA.

My next line of defense is I just ordered a copy of her Notary bond. All notaries are required to have a bond on file and I recommend everyone get themselves a copy if you suspect any kind of FRAUD. You can do this through the county recorders office in which the notary is registered. What I plan to do is compare the signature on the bond to the signature I have on my documents. If it's a match, great. If not, I will file a claim against the bond. All notaries in Ca must be bonded in the amount of $15k.
My robo-signed docs were signed and notarized in Minnesota.... please see letter I am about to attach.
 

calgirl67

LoanSafe Member
Sep 2, 2009
640
4
0
Draft letter to the criminal at Wells Fargo Mortgage: Please comment

Bugs Bunny
Olive Oil
PO Box 1111
Sacramento CA 95…


Date:

Wells Fargo Home Mortgage

PROPETY ADDRESS: XXXX

Wells Fargo Home Mortgage Executive Office
MAC X2302-02J
800 S Jordan Creek Pkwy West
Des Moines, IA 5026

Office of the Comptroller of the Currency
OCC Customer Assistance Group
1301 McKinney Street, Suite 3450
Houston, TX 77010-9050

First American Trustee Servicing Solutions, LLC
6 Campus Circle
2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Floor
Westlake, TX 76262

California State Attorney, Kamala D. Harris
Attorney General’s Office
California Department of Justice
Attn: Public Inquiry Unit
P.O. Box 944255
Sacramento, CA 94244-2550

California Department of Corporations
Consumer Services Office
1515 K Street, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95814


We demand the current Notice of Sale date/foreclosure be cancelled immediately and rescinded on the above property due to the following issues:

Not Contacted by bank or servicer as per CC 2923.5 30 days prior to recording of Notice of Defaut

We were not contacted either by phone or in person, to discuss alternative workout options, by anyone at anytime in the 30 day period preceding the recording of the Notice of Default against our property.

You are conducting an illegal foreclosure sale.


Robo Signing of all documents connected to this foreclosure sale

One Amy Toske signed the Notice of Default recorded on our property and a Mr Terence Lynn Jutila notarized the document certify under penalty of perjury that Amy Toske was Vice President of Loan Documentation at Wells Fargo on June 13, 2011.

Wells Fargo Bank, Terence Jutila and Amy Toske have also violated laws under the California Penal Code 115.5 – Filing False Documents with a County Recorder.

We have in our possession numerous documents also signed by Amy Toske, some examples we set out as follows:

  • Amy Toske Notary Public, notarizing Assignment of Mortgage dated April 2, 2011 for MERS assigning to US Bank National Trustee, signed in Massachusetts.
  • Amy Toske Notary Public, notarizing Assignment of Mortgage dated April 4, 2011 for MERS assigning to Wells Fargo Bank, signed in Massachusetts.
  • Amy Toske Notary Public, notarizing Assignment of Mortgage dated April 4, 2011 for MERS assigning to Deutsche Bank, signed in Massachusetts.
  • Amy Toske Notary Public, notarizing Assignment of Mortgage dated April 5, 2011 for MERS assigning to US Bank National Trustee, signed in Massachusetts.
  • Also on April 4, 2011, Amy Toske signed a document for Assignment of Mortgage, and declared herself Assistant Secretary for MERS. This document was notarized under penalty of perjury by a Taehooney Chin.
So is Ms Amy Toske:

  • Vice President of Loan Documentation at Wells Fargo?
  • Notary residing in Massachusetts?
  • Assistant Secretary for MERS?
We are confident during litigation discovery, we would find that Amy Toske was not who she said she was.


Declaration pursuant to CA Civil Code 2923.5

Additionally, a Ms. Shakanda L. Byers who certifies under penalty of perjury that on that day she was “Vice President”, Loan Documentation Wells Fargo, signed the attached Declaration pursuant to CA Civil Code 2923.5, that accompanied the Notice of Default dated July 18, 2011. The declaration does not state which specific action was taken in regards to our rights under CA CC 2923.5. We were at no time contacted by Wells Fargo 30 days prior to Filing of the Notice of Default. We have never been contacted by this person in any manner. Please provide proof that such contact was made as sworn in the attached affidavit.

We have other documents, a few in particular that show Jacob P. Heerwald as Vice President of Loan Documentation on matching dates as the individuals mentioned above.

We are confident during litigation discovery, we would find that Shakanda Byers was not who she said she was.


Mortgage not assigned within required timeframe stated under Pooling and Servicing Agreement

Under the Pooling and Servicing Agreement for the Citigroup Mortgage Loan Trust, Mortgage Pass Through Certificates Series 2006-AR2, that we have in our possession, the Assignment of Deed of Trust must be completed within 90 days of the trust closing to ensure legal and correct transfer of chain of title. The assignment for our mortgage was done on June 10, 2011. FIVE YEARS after it should have been done.

Please forward to us, and all entities listed as CC recipients, full and complete proof of chain of title completed in time frame as specified by the pooling and servicing agreement.

This mortgage was never legally assigned within the specified time frame.

There are so many illegal shortcuts, violations of laws in place to protect consumers, and violations of our rights that we hereby demand you cancel the pending Trustee’s Sale currently scheduled for Nov 15, 2011, since as required by law, among other things we were never given us the opportunity to explore alternatives to foreclosure.

Due to your unfair and illegal treatment of our situation, and lack of due diligence on your part, we will suffer avoidable harm at this time as a result of your improper foreclosure activities.

We have been advised that if you fail to cancel and rescind the Notice of Trustee Sale currently recorded against our property, and immediate cancelation of the trustees sale scheduled for Nov 15, 2011, we will be forced to file a Temporary Restraining Order to block the auction sale and then file a Lis Pendens on the title of the house while litigation proceeds to show you currently do not have the right to foreclose under current Federal and California law.

We also request an investigation is conducted into how and why these errors and false statements were made.

Our loan file contains many unresolved issues awaiting resolution from Wells Fargo. All communications concerning our loan file are conducted in writing and must include The OCC & Attorney Generals Office as shown above.

The lack of due diligence and accountability by the staff of Wells Fargo is unbelievable. Prior phone communications have proven to be non-productive, therefore; all correspondence concerning this matter should be addressed in writing to our PO Box address above & include copies to all the parties shown above.


Sincerley,




____________________________ ________________________
Bugs Bunny Olive Oil






John Stumpf
Cara Heiden
Cara K. Heiden, CEO
WELLS FARGO HOME MORTGAGE
[email protected]

Mary Coffin, Vice President
WELLS FARGO HOME MORTGAGE
[email protected]

WELLS FARGO HOME MORTGAGE Executive Communications
MAC X2302-02J 800 S Jordan Creek Pkwy West Des Moines, IA 5026 515-324-3130 and 515-324-28726 Cara K. Heiden 515-213-4040

Scott Pelley
60 Minutes
524 West 57th St.
New York, NY 10019

Jamie Court
President
Consumer Watchdog
1750 Ocean Park Blvd., Suite 200 • Santa Monica, CA 90405
 

freedomwon

LoanSafe Member
Oct 30, 2010
2,794
23
38
California
Hi Calgirl67 - That's a very well written letter. Thank you for posting it on this thread to share with others. I anticipate you will get a postponement, although a cancellation with a rescinded NOD would be even better. Is there any logical reason (other than the obvious FRAUD) as to why these documents were signed / notarized in Mass? Does Mass have a notary registry you can check with?
 

Tarin Myhairout

LoanSafe Member
Oct 31, 2011
320
3
0
Twin Cities, MN
Fraud is harder to prove; what about MISREPRESENTATION? (kinder, gentler fraud)

Hi Jeff, et al;

I ran across this issue while looking back today.

Being a pro se litigant is a difficult and lonely task. Here is a tip. (Since it is free, it might be worth exactly what you pay for it; but here goes.)

Your credibility is everything when you get to court. Judges can expect and require you to follow the local court rules of procedure and substance, just as if you are an attorney. Many judges will give you some leeway, but all of them know that a pro se litigant slows everything down, and they will look for a way to bounce you out the door.

Using the word FRAUD in court or in any document is fraught with danger; and can damage your credibility.

Yes, I know: It was fraud, it is fraud, it will be fraud. We are regular people and want to say it like it is!

HOWEVER:

This is a term of art in the law with a specific meaning, and requires a particular type of proof. Sometimes the behavior of the banks really isn't fraudulent (especially in these modification nightmares) in the technical, legal sense of the word; and if you are in court, that is the only sense that matters.

A judicial finding of fraud opens a whole big can of worms and pours it out all over the case, exposing the BANKS to a different level and type of liability - and judges are not going to do that if they can avoid it. So, give them a choice!

IF you must say fraud, also say "or misrepresentation."

A finding of Misrepresentation might be enough for your purposes and what you need to accomplish. (Or maybe not, it depends...) It is not nearly as emotionally satisfying as fraud, but get your emotions satisfied somewhere else (here, for example) and write your complaints/lawsuits/ gripes in a form that will more easily allow a judge to rule in your favor.

If you need a finding of fraud, by all means ask for it. If you just need a finding in your favor, ask for it in a way that makes it easy for the judges to say yes.

And that is Tarin's two cents!
 

Jeffrey L. Shurtliff

LoanSafe Member
Dec 4, 2010
3,823
139
63
Hi Jeff, et al;

I ran across this issue while looking back today.

Being a pro se litigant is a difficult and lonely task. Here is a tip. (Since it is free, it might be worth exactly what you pay for it; but here goes.)

Your credibility is everything when you get to court. Judges can expect and require you to follow the local court rules of procedure and substance, just as if you are an attorney. Many judges will give you some leeway, but all of them know that a pro se litigant slows everything down, and they will look for a way to bounce you out the door.

Using the word FRAUD in court or in any document is fraught with danger; and can damage your credibility.

Yes, I know: It was fraud, it is fraud, it will be fraud. We are regular people and want to say it like it is!

HOWEVER:

This is a term of art in the law with a specific meaning, and requires a particular type of proof. Sometimes the behavior of the banks really isn't fraudulent (especially in these modification nightmares) in the technical, legal sense of the word; and if you are in court, that is the only sense that matters.

A judicial finding of fraud opens a whole big can of worms and pours it out all over the case, exposing the BANKS to a different level and type of liability - and judges are not going to do that if they can avoid it. So, give them a choice!

IF you must say fraud, also say "or misrepresentation."

A finding of Misrepresentation might be enough for your purposes and what you need to accomplish. (Or maybe not, it depends...) It is not nearly as emotionally satisfying as fraud, but get your emotions satisfied somewhere else (here, for example) and write your complaints/lawsuits/ gripes in a form that will more easily allow a judge to rule in your favor.

If you need a finding of fraud, by all means ask for it. If you just need a finding in your favor, ask for it in a way that makes it easy for the judges to say yes.

And that is Tarin's two cents!
I agree and I do not like the word fraud and on my last suit the word was not in the complaint or the pleadings except the last one where I had attached evidence of Fraud. However Fraud has nine elements you must prove. The first one intent is the difficult one. Then there is Constructive fraud of which has I believe 7 elements which is the fraud that is the easiest to prove.
I like the way you address "et. al" are you an attorney?
The problem that I have run into is the court sides with the banks and the trustees and no one hardly wins even with a lawyer because of the fudiciary relationship the court has with the trustee and the bank pursuant to foreclosure on properties.
When I brought my last suit the judge was really pissed at me because I was actually involving the trustee in violation of eight Utah laws.
What puzzles me is two months after they have gotten the Motion to dismiss the case is still open. Ever heard of this?
 
Last edited:

Tarin Myhairout

LoanSafe Member
Oct 31, 2011
320
3
0
Twin Cities, MN
State Court Mysteries-Utah

I agree and I do not like the word fraud and on my last suit the word was not in the complaint or the pleadings except the last one where I had attached evidence of Fraud. However Fraud has nine elements you must prove. The first one intent is the difficult one. Then there is Constructive fraud of which has I believe 7 elements which is the fraud that is the easiest to prove.
I like the way you address "et. al" are you an attorney?
The problem that I have run into is the court sides with the banks and the trustees and no one hardly wins even with a lawyer because of the fudiciary relationship the court has with the trustee and the bank pursuant to foreclosure on properties.
When I brought my last suit the judge was really pissed at me because I was actually involving the trustee in violation of eight Utah laws.
What puzzles me is two months after they have gotten the Motion to dismiss the case is still open. Ever heard of this?
Hi Jeff-
Nah, just having fun with et al. But are you and Estela not deserving of a Latin honorific?

I think you understand how stacked against you this deck really is. If the trustee and the judge are that tight by law, you have no friend in that courtroom.

I'm sure you have tried before, but is there really no attorney who is willing to help you? Pro se litigants get no respect, and opposing counsel won't even do the type of negotiating with you that they would if you were represented.

It is truly unjust. The courts are supposed to be there for the people to be heard, but the courthouse doors are all but closed to you without that attorney ticket. I think you scare them, because your case has merit and you have enough media attention to really embarrass them if you were to prevail. (Not to mention giving hope and help to other people in your situation.)

Banks really do depend on us to just hang our heads and go away quietly. People who have faced foreclosure are usually not able to afford an attorney, if they could find one who is willing to take on one of these icky cases. And I bet they are icky. They are complicated, and the clients are stressed out and broke. The banks have plenty of legal muscle, and pockets deep enough to keep cases tied up for a long time, running up those bills all along. In our case, those outrageous fees and costs were simply added to what we will have to pay to buy back the house during the Redemption Period. Since we have to pay, the bank had no incentive to try to resolve anything or keep the fees down. It's a good gig if you can get it!

SIDE NOTE: One of the local newspapers ran a story about US BANK's MN law firm, and what a gold mine it was for this heretofore unknown and undistinguished law firm. Too bad they didn't upgrade the phones and hire a receptionist so I could actually talk to someone when I called.

What do you mean that the case is still open 2 months after they got the Motion to Dismiss? Is the case is still 'open' until the time to appeal has run? Do they open a new 'case' each time you file a new motion? I just have no idea.
I don't know if Utah has this or not, but MN has started providing some help to pro se parties with forms, and little diy guides. I have no idea whether it actually does help or not. Alternative Dispute Resolution is all the rage right now, and parties are often ordered into mediation early on. I'm not sure if it works, or just adds yet another layer of expense and delays to an already costly, time-consuming and stressful process. What good attorney is going to send her client alone into a meeting designed to hammer out concessions and end a case?

Please keep us updated, and check the us bank thread for my thanksgiving meditation about you.

Fondly,
Tarin