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Wells Fargo calculation of Income resulted in HAMP denial NEED Insight, please?

Discussion in 'Making Home Affordable' started by Dimac, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Dimac

    Dimac LoanSafe Member

    I applied for a HAMP modification recently and just received a denial letter. I work for a school part-time and am self-employed part-time. Here are the high level details:

    First, my initial plan was to apply for a short sale and was asked to put together a P&L for the past 3 months I admittedly did it fast and missed some business income. WF told me I needed a one-to-one correlation between my P&L income and deposits into my bank account (to verify) and asked that I redo the P&L and submit bank statements reflecting these deposits, which I did. This resulted in a higher 3 month income that absolutely tracked to deposits into my bank account. The 3 month average was $2400. I also work in a job where I have minimal expenses, but allocated $200 per month. This recalculation is actually what gave me the idea that I might qualify for a mod, so I asked if they would consider it and was told yes.

    WF then asked for all the documentation for HAMP, which included a request for 30 days proof of income (paycheck) so I provided my latest one month pay statement. This was gross $2495 for the month. I informed WF that while I worked for the company since August, my hours increased mid-January (I teach). WF asked me for the January paycheck, even though I was very clear it was only a partial month. This apparently became confusing, as WF then asked me to get a letter from my employer indicating that I would be employed through the end of the year (I do not have a contract and am an at-will employee just like everyone else). When I explained that wasn't going to happen, they changed their request to require a letter w/start date, pay rate, and to say I was an employee in good standing. I sent this as well.

    Now when I add the $2495 gross per month with the $2400 gross per month, I come up with $4895. Somehow WF claims my monthly income is $2650.31 per month and states I do not have sufficient income for a modification.

    I called WF and was told they 'chose' to use the original P&L (the one with the mistake--not the one with the one-to-one tracking of deposits) for my business income, which is $4400 for the 3 months. They then asked me to explain why my business expenses of $200 per month are different than my business tax deductions. (I explained things like buying gas for $50 and writing off a per mile expense).

    The net is they are saying my income is $2650.31 per month, and tell me I am denied for Hamp and asked if I would like to apply for a short sale. I cannot figure out where they came up with this income number, but I'm told that is what the underwriter determined was my monthly income. Really? The bank records and pay stub aren't sufficient to do that?

    This makes me sick, because clearly their calculation is not correct. I ran the numbers (using a forebearance for the arrearages) and based on PITI it will be very close if they drop to 2% and kick it out to 40 years, but with a $4900 income I should qualify.

    I'm not sure what the heck is going on, but please, if you have any ideas I would truly appreciate it.

    btw, there is a sale date set a couple of months out.

    Thank you very much!!!! (and sorry for the long details)
  2. KevinFinnerty

    KevinFinnerty LoanSafe Member

    My sympathies.

    I am going through a similar, although opposite type of situation, but it involves the same issue - the "underwriter" has my income calculations WRONG, their "formula" DOES NOT WORK FOR MY CASE, so they say I make MORE than I actually do, and have approved me with payments that are too high. They work out to about 38% of my actual income.

    They are looking at my YTD earnings which included a hellish week in April where I had to work mega-overtime, plus got holiday pay, which gave me a paycheck TWICE AS HIGH as normal. I EXPLAINED this to them in a letter when I applied that they CANNOT use the figures for that paycheck period to calculate my regular salary going forward. But they don't care, they are using it anyway.


    This HAMP program is so screwed up it is ridiculous. The goal from my perspective is not to "make your home affordable" at all. It is to drive you crazy. That distressed homeowners lose their homes in the process is a side effect that nobody gives a damn about.
  3. Cat Damiano

    Cat Damiano Mortgage Wars

  4. KevinFinnerty

    KevinFinnerty LoanSafe Member

    No, thanks for that information Cat.

    I have been trying to figure out who else I can ask for help. I did try HUD but I found them to be totally clueless and no help whatsoever. I did tell my bank's rep at Chase that I would be contacting any agency and person I could possibly find, including HUD (yet again), HAMP, FreddieMac, my congressman, senator, state attorney general, the president & CEO of Chase, hell even President Obama if I can get him to take my calls. I am in the process of figuring out how to get in touch with all of these people/agencies now. Your info above really helps.

    Chase were supposed to get back to me again today but haven't as yet. Judging from how it's gone so far I have no optimism that they can do anything though. It all seems to be in the hands of this mysterious "underwriter" person, who they will not let me talk to. And according to them there is no one else that can do anything about my trial mod offer.

    Thanks again for your help. I have a day off today so I can make a bunch of phone calls right now....was just coming back up here now to try to figure out some more stuff & saw your post :)
  5. KevinFinnerty

    KevinFinnerty LoanSafe Member

    It just gets better and better (not).

    Talked to FreddieMac. They tell me they can't talk to me since my bankruptcy case is still open. BUT IT'S NOT. IT CLOSED LAST AUGUST, AT WHICH TIME CHASE THEN GOT THEIR FORECLOSURE JUDGMENT (that in itself is another long story, in that they did so PREMATURELY about 2 weeks prior to my house being released as an asset & my case being closed. But that is neither here nor there....)

    I told them my BK case is closed. That they can verify that with the internet records at our county courthouse. Woman tells me they can't talk to me until they are notified that the case is "closed" and that my records are "updated".

    I ask WHO notifies them/updates my record so that Freddie Mac will accept that my BK case is closed & she tells me "the lender - Chase". Bingo. Yet one more example of the idiots at Chase who have no idea what they are doing (I could go on & on about this point, numerous mistakes & crazy things that Chase has done with my case).

    We go around and around in circles, I try to ask if I can get Chase to properly update Freddie Mac's records to show that my BK has closed will I then be able to talk to someone at Freddie Mac to help me get my mortgage modification offer CORRECTED to match my actual salary and take into account my home owner's association monthly dues and she tells me that Freddie Mac has nothing to do with that, that the lender takes care of that, they look at the salary etc and determine the mortgage modification amount.

    I will stop now. There is more to this of course. She even refers me back to HUD, who I already spent an hour on the phone with on Monday and it was a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.



    I apologize for yelling but I am seriously losing it.
  6. KevinFinnerty

    KevinFinnerty LoanSafe Member

    Wow - I actually just spoke to someone who could actually help - someone who UNDERSTOOD everything I was talking about and had at least some power to try to do something about it.

    I can't even recall how I was able to get in touch with him, but if I remember right I called the HAMP solution center, HAMP Solution Center
    Phone: 1-866-939-4469
    which then put me into a phone system that said if not involved already with an escalated case to press "2", which then somehow transferred me to HUD (again) but this time when I spoke to whoever answered the phone I said that I did NOT want to talk to their "credibility" advisors yet again and that I needed to speak with someone strictly concerned with overseeing issues with HAMP modifications, and they put me into their "MHA Help Team" and the person I spoke to there, OMG, this guy was sharp. Actually listened to what I was talking about and instead of reading back from generic scripts asked intelligent questions and indicated he understood the situation, and that there was some recourse for me, which he would initiate.

    Now, he & I disagree about the question of my wages - he even tried to explain something about how some months have more days than others which makes no sense to me as far as the calculations go, but he did agree that my HOA dues are not being taken into account by Chase like they should be, and he opened a conference call with Chase, where basically Chase demonstrated yet again how they do not understand what is going on and they just parroted a bunch of nonsense back to him.....to make a long story short a case has been "escalated" for me with MHA. I have to work with MHA now to try to get this fixed. Bad news is I have to make the inflated modification payments as is until this gets corrected if I want to get a modification. But at least it gives me some hope now of saving my house, and getting closer to affordable payments, even though they will still be higher than they should be IMO.

    As per MHA, I am going to call "the treasury department" to discuss the guidelines used to determine monthly salaries. I am being screwed going forward by the YTD earnings being looked at with no exceptions made for OT that I worked in April, and guidelines which do NOT exist (as I understand it) would need to be in place that reflect my case for anyone to do anything regarding looking at my salary correctly.

    For anyone in similar circumstances needing help and not finding anyone that can look over your HAMP modification and (hopefully) try to correct any errors, the number to call for the MHA help team is 1-877-300-5454. These have been the only people that I have talked to thus far that have demonstrated they know what they are doing!!
  7. Cat Damiano

    Cat Damiano Mortgage Wars

    Well I am glad that the HAMP Solution Center number that I posted for you was at least able to get you to the MHA escalations. I do hope that they are able to get things worked out for you soon.

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