The ill informed capitalistic, homeowner hater club needs to get a clue!

[Moe Bedard]

This post is in response to the constant critical comments from the capitalists that “think” they are superior and more intelligent than everyone else. Especially the struggling homeowner.





Ron and Joe - Do you really know what “truly” happened in the mortgage industry over the last 5-10 years?


Ron - No, I do not delete opposing views because I am a man and I can “understand” that not everyone is going to have the same “views”. People tell me to f@#k off and I could care less.


Especially when it comes from a homeowner hater. I know who these people are. They are the capitalistic pigs that have no “true” idea of what “really” is going on in the streets and what has went on over the last 10 plus years. Plain and simple.


You say, “Any efforts to artificially prop up the real estate market only delay the day of reckoning.” That is the biggest joke that I keep hearing over and over from you capitalists!!!!!!!!

There is no way in HELL that anyone can prop up a real estate market that is spiraling out of control with a simple rate freeze for a very “small” group of homeowners. Couple that with the fact that this market to begin with was “ARTIFICAILLY” created and resembles a massive , world wide ponzi scheme.Then add on a super, duper layer of massive fraud, corruption, thievery and deception and you have the market that was created by puff and fluff.


You can’t let that type of market just “naturally” run it’s unnatural course!!!!


How the hell are you just going to say, “moe–you and your website are a disservice to all market participants.”

FYI- I am here for the struggling homeowner and NOT the “market participants”.


The homeowner that has a home they can afford, but can’t afford the damn toxic and exploding mortgage that you and your market participants created to get you all filthy, stinking rich and leave them holding the toxic sludge bag.

Joe -Step down from your ivory tower and come down here to the streets of the middle class and take a whiff of the crap. Because Joe, it’s pretty damn $hitty down here right now and that aroma from all the foreclosure feces will reach you and your buddies on Wall Street and in the ivory towers soon.

You say, “This kind of socialist rhetoric sounds like Hillary talking. You can’t take away the discipline and accountability of the free market. If you allow the market to resolve it’s own problems, it will. The banks are in business to make money, no?”

Yes, the banks are here to make money, agreed. The market that you see today was artificially created to begin with. Get with the times. It was based, as I said above, on a ponzi scheme to get everyone rich at the top and leave everyone on the bottom, screwed.

It is quite evident that is what we are seeing today. The rich got rich and now the middle class and the poor get screwed! You and your capitalistic ill informed rhetoric will not change my views of the facts and reality that I am in front of every single day.


The fraud I see and the scams by “market participants” far out weigh by 1,000,000 fold, any type of homeowner fraud.


Again Joe, Ron and all the other homeowner haterz and critics, you have no clue on how the mortgage business operated over the last 10 years.

These people that you call irresponsible were extended credit based on underwriting guidelines by lenders to “determine” their credit worthiness, purchase power based on income and long term risk.



What that means guys, “THE LENDERS WERE IRRESPONSIBLE!” The regulatory agencies were irresponsible as well and turned a blind eye to the problem.

These homeowners were “pre-qualified” by a broker or lender to “determine” their purchasing ability and guided many times by a licensed professional to give them “professional, ethical and honest” advice. In fact they had a fiduciary duty to do so. But we all know that wasn’t the case in most instances. Most of these “professionals” just sold what the “market” i.e.: lenders, were offering in regards to lending products that were being “offered” to these people. Everyone knew they wouldn’t be able to afford the resets on these mortgages. But everyone was told, “Don’t worry, we’ll get your FICO scores up over the next couple years and place you in a 30 year fixed loan. Now, just sign here.”


These are the same borrowers that QUALIFIED for a REAL MORTGAGE using REAL UNDERWRITING GUIDELINES from REAL LENDERS to DETERMINE if the borrower that is APPLYING for a REAL LOAN can AFFORD that MORTGAGE that they are APPLYING for with a LICENSED PROFESSIONAL using UNDERWRITERS that are EMPLOYED by the LENDER to MAKE SURE that the BORROWER can PAY THEM BACK once they LEND THEM THE CASH.


Wow, what a concept! Imagine that? These homeowners had to go through all that to make sure they can afford a loan at the starter rate.

Hence, here lies the problem that we are seeing as a result of those lending activities. They did not do their job correctly and should have qualified borrowers at the rate when the mortgage would adjust not the damn start rate.


You see, every loan that is originated has to be sold to the consumer before it becomes and an actual secured mortgage. Many loans that were sold over the last few years, as you know, were adjustable rate mortgages.


Consumers never say, ” Please put me in an ARM that adjusts in 2 years.” No they were “SOLD” these loans.


Here was the typical sales pitch by licensed professionals. ” I know that you didn’t want an adjustable rate mortgage but that all you qualify for. But don’t worry Mr. Jones, I’ll be able to refi you in 2 years and get you into a fixed loan, no problem. This is just a band aid loan because you have tarnished credit, can’t prove income and you don’t have a dime to your name.”


Do you think these same homeowners would have been sold the loan if it went like this?


“Here’s your loan Mr. Jones. It’s and adjustable rate mortgage that will shoot through the roof in two years, your payment will double, you’ll be screwed financially, the bank will eventually foreclosure on you, ruining your credit for 7 years and your life will leave you because she’s sick of you drinking cheap scotch on their dirty linoleum floor.”I guarantee that if that was the case then we wouldn’t be where we are at now.


Now, add in the massive fraud (not the homeowners) but the market participants and you have an artificial fraudulently created market that we see today.


Yes, homeowner haterz, many borrowers committed fraud and bought homes they could not afford. They are the minority and will suffer their fate. I am not here for them or do I support them in any way shape or form.


So, don’t group ALL homeowners in your narrow minds as borrowers that made bad decisions and should suffer their fate.


So, what does an artificial market do? It doesn’t go pop, it goes BOOM! And we are seeing theses explosions in the most fraudulently and artificially created, real estate markets in the country.

i.e. Stockton, Ca. , Santa Ana, Ca., Las Vegas, Nv. etc…..


I am in the Inland Empire in California. 1 in 43 homes in foreclosure. A direct result of the population boom + real estate boom + huge amount of minorities + predatory loans = 1 in 43 homes in foreclosure. DUH!


Geez, I didn’t need some scientist, CNBC, professor or economist to tell me that. Hell no! These communities were ran by SHARKS that preyed on minorities and the middle class, fueled by their greed because these were higher dollar commission sales.


Why go to Wyoming and make $1,000 on a real estate or mortgage deal, when you can go to the Golden State and make $10,000, $20k, $30k a pop?


I watch CNBC often and watch some of the idiots say, “We don’t have foreclosure problems in every state. Only California, Florida, Nevada… yada, yada…….. Homeowners could not afford these homes and our investors are expecting returns on these mortgages and the rate freeze is wrong!”


Meanwhile some these journalists and news anchors on Squawk Box and similar financial news media channels say that all the comments and responses they are receiving is against a freeze, bail out or helping homeowners in any way.


DUH again!


Your viewers and readers are by vast majority, capitalists, greedy market participants. Not middle class homeowners! And these idiots are paid high dollars to give their ill informed opinions? Barf!


Most of these guys do have a clue how these loans work, yet they are “now” talking about them every day like they are all experts on mortgages, loan modifications and foreclosures.



Well, Mr. Capitalistic idiots, there are more foreclosures in these states because that’s where lenders, brokers and predators concentrated their efforts based on;

#1. How much money they can make on each toxic loan.
#2. How big is the population, so they can sell more toxic loans.


Pretty simple elementary formula. Not rocket science. Just common, capitalistic, greedy sense. You should all know that.


Common sense like I have to recognize “reality” and the “truth” of what really happened and why our great nation is in the position it is today.

Option ARM’s, 2/28’s, 3/27’s, stated stated at 100% down to a 600 FICO Score for wage earners etc….. Most ALL of these loans should have never been created and sold en mass like they were. In reality these are “defective credit instruments”, “junk loans” i.e. “predatory”.

These mortgages should be recalled NOW!


Just like when someone gets sick from eating tainted beef and they do a nationwide recall. They don’t wait till 5 people die before they make the manufacturer of that beef, recall all the beef in every store in the country. There is no hesitation to act for the greater good of making sure no one else is affected by this tainted product.


Now, over 1 million homes have been foreclosed on as the direct result of tainted and toxic loans. People have died as the result of murder and suicide because of the stress of losing their homes. Crime and blithe is also being attributed to increased foreclosures.


Yet, our government places a small generic band aid on a massive, gaping wound that is bleeding profusely, seriously infected and spreading foreclosure disease everywhere as the capitalistic idiots continue their rhetoric and ill informed chatter………


By the way, I think Wall Street is bi-polar and all you “market participants” need to be placed on medication.

Maybe Jim Cramer will be reading this and it will cause a one day run on pharmaceutical companies and when you all go bust (THE STOCK MARKET TANKS), you can drink cheap scotch on your dirty linoleum floors in your studio apartments together.

from my blog at http://loanworkout.org/2007/12/08/th...to-get-a-clue/

[me2blue]

Moe,
Feeling a little depressed I LIKE TO READ THIS THREAD- IT GIVES ME A KICK IN THE HEAD and I realize what happened to me, you say it as it is and I who spent 2 years trying to figure out, and even now after knowing still can't explain to others what happened, if their not in it they don't have a clue and feel we the homeowners are to blame for the economy. I don't know why your doing it, I can't figure out when Poppy sleeps, your team is all there is, for what you are doing I can't thank you enough, do you ever think about the ones who didn't find you, I do, sometimes I think about the kids, the disabled and the war vets who lost their homes, what a disgrace for the best country in the world, what will the history books say- YOU SHOULD WRITE A BOOK, NO ONE COULD SAY IT BETTER! I know if you believe in heaven, you have a place there cuz here on earth my holy trinity is MOE-MARSHALL-POPPY!

[mindfreak]

me2blue,

I feel for you and I too appreciate coming here to get a reality check on what the heck happened to my life...

I work with a bone fide homeowner hater who has no idea what I am going through. For that matter, it's likely that other coworkers are going through the same and, like me, keep it private.

Anyhoo...this coworker said loudly a couple weeks ago "I have absolutely no sympathy for these people losing their homes. They bought more than they could afford and were greedy." That wasn't enough, she added, "did you know that the people who are delinquent on their loans can now get a fixed rate at 4.25%? Meanwhile, those of us who have been responsible pay a higher rate." I wonder what crackpot she was listening to to come with that load of dung.

[Moe Bedard]

They have pitted neighbors against neighbors. Co-workers against co-workers. The American culture is judgmental and bias in every which way and this is a perfect example of the ignorance that spreads through every nook and cranny of our culture.

That is why I created Loan Safe. I saw this hate coming at homeowners a long time ago and it has only grown. The crazy thing is that a lot are homeowners to or your friend or as mindblown said, a work colleague. Sad times we live in..........

[mindfreak]

That is why I created Loan Safe.

I am so very grateful to you and the rest of the team here for giving me and others some peace of mind.

[rupert]

Moe, This is the first post I have read written by you. Yes I am new. It is good to see people out there still looking out for the everyday guy like me! Keep up the hard work.

[Merlin]

Moe,

This pretty much sums up to what's going on right now. I had my loan docs audited and there is so much violations. Numerous times I ask myself how I got to this point. There was malicious intent across the board from the broker, appraiser, lender, etc. They did not care how things will turn out in the end, as soon as the homeowner signs the paperwork, they all got their cut.

[ManicMangaManiac]

Is there anyone in this forum who's got a family member or members who are homeowner haters?? My own brother is one who has absolutely NO sympathy or compassion for the situation I am in. Like a lot of you, I was deliberately steered into a predatory subprime loan by an unscrupulous broker who lied to me through her teeth about its being a fixed-rate loan, blah, blah, blah. You all know how it goes, with most of us sliding into foreclosure and going through the most incredible stress imaginable.

My brother is a selfish and self-centered a** who acts most of the time as if I don't exist and his wife, my sister-in-law, is no better. They live in an extravagant McMansion in an upscale suburb of Kansas City. I did a little snooping on the 'Net earlier this week and found out through the county treasurer's website that his house, which he designed himself (he's an archtitect who's designed such major league sports complexes as the Colorado Rockies' Coors Field and the Miami Heat's arena, to name a few), was appraised this year at ONE POINT FOUR MILLION DOLLARS and that he paid a property tax bill of almost TWENTY GRAND on it!!!

And here I am, living in a little house which I inherited from my mother in 2006, that's got wood rot and termite damage; all of the windows need replacing and one bathroom has mold and mildew on the wall from a leaky toilet, etc., etc. and the a**hole of a brother doesn't lift a finger to help with any of the repairs -- not even a peep from him, except to say he'll be happy to shoehorn me into a tiny studio apartment -- while he's living it up in his McMansion in Mission Hills and rubbing shoulders with sports celebs like George Brett and Cal Ripken. His arrogance is unbelievable! And yet he calls himself a Christian *puke*.

Got any relatives like him?? I would love nothing more than to permanently erase the smirk off his face.. and his wife's as well, for good measure. Believe me, he's got it coming to him one of these days and he'll be taking a very nasty and hard tumble from his ivory tower; "what goes around, comes around". You can bet he won't be getting any sympathy from me. Why should he, when he's showing me nada, zip, zilch, zero?

Sally

[Debating]

Moe, you've made a nice site and for that I will give you credit.

However, your spin on the housing/mortgage mess is pitiful at best. The truth is most people suffering are getting exactly what they deserve. And vast majority of those who have lost their homes lost them out of stupidity and no other reason. To paint these people as victims is nonsense. For the most part they are nothing bt victims of their own bad judgement.

Many of these people could never afford the houses to begin with. For example, when I bought in 2005 the bank said I could afford an 800K house, but I bought a 350K one instead. And many others got themselves into a jam by using their home as an ATM machine through refinancing. Those 2 groups alone account for the vast majority of foreclosures.

Take me for example. I bought a house I could afford and I never refinanced. Then I got laid off from a great paying job so I needed to sell my house. Even though I live in Florida where prices have crashed I am able to get out of my house for a small loss having sold it in less than 30 days because of two things. 1) I put a real downpayment down and 2) I have saved money.

So even though I have enough money to live in the house for 6 years easily with no income I'm doing whats best for my family and my finances and getting out now. Someday once prices have truely bottomed and I'm making good money I hope to scoop up a nice place from some desperate nitwit who did the wrong things.

The people I'm pissed at are all the poser's who wanted to live like me but didn't have the money to afford it. And, yes, I have no love loss for the morons who loaned these idiots the money either.

The simple fact is noone deserves to own a house let alone a nice one. It's nobody's fault but your own if you didn't watch out for yourself and your family got in over your head. Thats the cost of freedom- the freedom to fail as well as succeed.

Certianly there are people losing their homes through no fault of their own too. They didn't over buy or refi, they just lost their jobs and can't replace the income. The people they should hate are those who did over buy and did refi, for without them none of this could have happened. But unforetunately we live in a society where everyone wants to live like a rich guy but very few are willing to do what it takes to actually be rich. All the banks did was take advantage of the weakness in people.


Sally---

I am a loser and an idiot, please forgive me!

[ravengotu]

Well to Debating, I say this to you bravo zulu for knowing what the future holds for homeowners. So with this said wisdom where are we about to go ...hmmmmmmmm.
I make 100,000 with a 710 fico score and got my loan at 7.125...why..You tell me.........cause it is all a sham.....

When you go to buy something..anything you are at the mercy of who is selling......Our system is so broken that not even you with your incite can fix it....Oh did i mention that my home was for 300,000......and ARM.....created by greed and the need for wanting more and more......
I will tell you this if we had a Govt for the people then I would not have even thought about buying a home, but due to paying 12,000 a year in taxes without a home I decided to save some with purchasing a home.....I think most of you look the wrong way, and judge those who you really know little about.....

Imagine it could be you.....

[snapple candy]

Debating....this was pretty harsh.
To say that most deserve what they got and the vast majority lost their homes due to stupidity...well quite frankly that falls into the realm of sterio-typing and I do not think is a fair statement to all that cruise these threads and share their feelings nor to Moe. No doubt I agree that some fall into the category you describe, but not the vast majority like you portray. This is a very opinionated statement and comes off like you are better than everyone else. Not sure if you meant it to be that way but it came off that way and very insulting to many here. You appear to have been very savvy with your money and have alot to offer in the way of advice, please dont hurl insulting and hurtful remarks.

[river22]

It dosnt matter how much money you have. Your money will run out. The longer this financial mess continues then more people will be affected. This is not a normal crises and to think you are safe or have made a slick decision to avoid finacial loss. Think Again...

[Walking Away]

Debating, there is no "spin" from Moe Bedard. Foreclosures are up more than 500% the past 20 months. That's "spin"?. Over 20% of all existing mortgages are under water and close to 40% of all loans originated from 2003-2007 are under water. Spin? No, not spin--it's called a crisis. These are the 5 main con years and most here got their loan in this time frame. The median appraisal of homes in America have had their biggest 2 year drop ever by a margin of 4 times the next largest 2 year drop. I say appraisal to remind you that this crisis invloves a loss of equity for both the struggling home owner and the home owner who is current. So the most homes not foreclosed on; the better for all homeowners. This site understands this; Washington doesn't. There's no spin to any of this. It's a real crisis and it might only half way through at best. One problem is the banks, the politicans and most of the media have conned most Americans; like you; into blaming the victims of this crisis instead of the banks who were the perpetrators of this crisis. You've been conned Debating and you really should take a hike because from your post, you show you really no nothing about the mortgage industry and the con job perpetrated by the banks and the politicians. The politicians are bankrolled more by the banking industry than any other sector; so they ignored these rip off rates and looked the other way. Almost half the loans originated from 2003-2007 were either sub prime, alt-A, interest only, Option ARM or jumbo prime and all 5 of these kinds of loans are complete rip offs and scams; with interest rates from 8-12%. 2 of these loands don't even lower principle. So about 50% of all loans originated in those 5 years were scams. People saw prices sky rocketing and figured if they don't buy then they'd never own. So they bought and worked their ass off in hopes of refinancing only to be blocked from refinancing. Almost every borrower here seems to have 3 things in common: they have a high interest scam loan, they've posted that they work full time and/or overtime and they are unable to refinance. So debating; you've been given a brief explanation of what has happened and I hope others like you read this and learn a bit(I can tell you won't understand and I wouldn't respond back to you). I can't speak for the people who run this site but my home was modified and saved only because I found this site. They want no money for their help and don't even have a link here for donations. And through their efforts; I'm sure they've saved more homes than the Washington politicians

[chazkeepahoma]

Gees Debating, maybe we should go to Vegas together! I've listened to radio real estate shows, newspaper, TV experts prior to buying our home in 2005. Some experts predicted a bubble that would burst. Some said prices would level out with no growth for several years. And then all the in between. Did we take a risk? Sure. But like Walking Away said we bought thinking if we don't get in now we'll never own a home and the american dream would be a thing of the past.
You speak of the cost of freedom. When the banks run this country and the greased politicians work for them instead of the people then we lost our freedom. There are many common sense solutions to many problems in this country and the government continues to play us all like a fiddle. You may have the money now to survive but if you keep your blinders on they will get you to!
Perhaps your ability to forecast the future was from your great paying job in the banking industry and like Mozilo "scoop up a nice place from some desperate nitwit".
I can see the buzzards flying now!

[amyjeannine]

I agree with WalkingAway... If I had not found this site by accident, I would not even know how to begin to fix my situation. I can't stand confrontation, but I learned from this site to be assertive, use that telephone and harass the finance company and DOCUMENT everything.

Not once have I been asked for money. There are GENERIC suggestions on where to go for help, loads of support, and a lot of people in the same boat.

Moe shining the light on the industry is not benefiting himself. He has made my life LOADS better.

We can not cry about how we got here, but support each other in getting out.

[ManicMangaManiac]

Debating,

How DARE you pass judgment on the majority of us LoanSafe members when you don't know the whole story! The house I'm living in, I inherited from my mother after taking care of her 24/7 for over four and a half years -- with virtually NO help from said brother. Believe me, the a**hole owes me BIG time for the sacrifices I made for OUR mother, yet he says he's under no obligation to me at all. He's full of BS and one of these days he will be forced to eat humble pie, and I cannot wait for that to happen.......

Sally

[Moe Bedard]

Debating is an ass looking to make him or herself feel good by putting people down. I don't allow that here chump.

I didn't create a forum for people to be shot down for their choices or views. I created it to help suffering people in a time of need. This is a support forum, NOT a shoot people down forum.

If they want to save their home, bail on it or burn it, that is their choice. All I am going to do is try and help them make a wise decision and make them think. From day one, I have never condemned a Main Street fellow American or cut anyone (non-lender ) down for whatever choice they make or have made in the past.

You remind me of that Bible verse, 'How can you say I have splinters in my eyes, when you have logs sticking out of yours!' something like that........

Here is his humble pie Sally and I haven't done this in a while...

[FedUp02]

Debating apparently has a lot of time on his hands.

[Moe Bedard]

Yeah, I should have guessed that with the screen name, Debating. Go debate somewhere else, we have homes to save and spirits to lift

[FedUp02]

Good point. He's probably a lousy debater (or is that debator?) anyway.

[Irish Gal]

Hey Moe,

Thanks for taking care of that enigma called “Debating!” You’re very busy, but you always seem to show up at just the right time! You're better than Emeril! BAM ! BANNED! I love the visual effects too! Too funny! Why on earth someone comes to your site seeking support and advice from people he considers “nitwits” and “losers,” seemingly resolves his situation with help here, then goes off on some high horse by attacking the very premise of this site is just plain odd. I didn’t respond because I don’t like to get into pyssing matches with skunks ! he he he Anyways, as you know, there’s TONS of that type of mentality ad nauseum on other housing blogs (and in media) also where all the self-appointed “I did it right and why should I be punished for being responsible!!!” “heros” hang out and bytch non-stop about all the “deadbeat homeowners.” Yawn. They use the crisis to beat others up and pat themselves on the back for “doing it right.” Double yawn. I’ve also noticed something else throughout crisis. Its seems to be quite ok for everyone to dump on the “loser homeowners” who, for the most part, are victims of mortgage fraud in one way or another, but when the wealthy become victims of some investment scammer, they’re true “victims.” Why is that? Didn’t Madoff’s wealthy investors (of all people) sign on the dotted lines too and “should have known better” than to be scammed by someone like Madoff ? Didn’t they all drool over all the unrealistic, phony (unbelievably high) returns he lied about FOR YEARS and play along with his stupid (greed) games before they got bit by the snake ? Where’s all the venomous financial assessors, holier than thou’ers and moral high ground’ers screaming about all those “nitwits.” The Madoff investors blindly followed and ponied up billions to their financial guru and con man “to the Stars,” Bernie. No due diligence performed whatsoever there. They just “trusted” the friend of a friend of a friend who had “connections” with Bernie. How come those collective, wealthy, investor “nitwits” who lost billions to a run o’ the mill, ponzi schemer are spared the attacks for their “gambling,” “greed,” and ultimate “stupidity” ? It’s called a double standard and lack of representation between the two classes of victims. The Madoff’ers are “victims” but scammed homeowners were “irresponsible!” WTF? The double standard and classism applied to the various classes of victims of fraud throughout this financial party we find our country in, is just amazing. Isn’t it? So, as Walking Away said, the con job on the country has worked (and continues). These dung-flinging homeowners who (allegedly) “did it right” don’t get out or read much, I guess. Any intelligent, well-informed, empathetic citizen knows by now what really happened to cause the financial crisis and who the real culprits are in this mess. And, they know it’s not the “irresponsible homeowners.” (But, on another note, I did hear that American (deadbeat, of course) homeowners did apparently plot to take down Iceland’s economy, are responsible for global warming, swine flu epidemic, AIDS in Africa, and Jon & Kate’s divorce! he he he )

P.S. I hope all is well with you and yours . Congrats on your new baby girl!

[snapple candy]

As usual, Irish Gal,
You put it well! I like the "Emeril" description for Moe. Those are great graphics and good for a few chuckles for sure.

[Moe Bedard]

Hey Irishgal, long time no talk

Here's the deal on the classism you speak of is real and the ones on Main Street who get it and choose to get educated will win their own private battles. I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of people on Main Street who are just dead asleep or drunk on Wall Street wine and meaningless "things".

When I say a lot, I feel that most everyone just doesn't have a clue about money, banks, debt, Washington, real estate or anything. They spend more time watching Perez Hilton to get the latest celebrity gossip then they do getting educated.

The facts are that we have become a society that is predominantly slaves to money and debt. Until we do away with meaningless things, debt and just crap, we will always be in this vicious cycle of recession and depressions. Crashes and bubbles are all created by this money, debt and real estate.

Money is the root of all evil. Too many people will do whatever it takes to live and some to kill and pillage at any cost. Yet it is a staple to live now, just like water and air. That my friend is a deadly combination and I feel we may be on a course hell bent on destruction if we don't change some things fast!

Life was never supposed to be this way.

[CW California]

He was no master debater! haha

[ManicMangaManiac]

God bless you Moe, for sticking up for all of us and telling it like it is to those idiotic homeowner haters!! And Irish Gal, I loved your take on the Bernie Madoff scandal....double standard, my foot. ARRRRRGGGH! I'm taking comfort knowing that those negative Nellies will be eating humble pie sooner or later, including my brother :-D and I can't wait for that day when he's gonna have to kiss my feet or something like that!
Sally

P.S. Moe, I hope you unceremoniously booted 'Debating' off our hallowed forums.....