Old 03-12-2009, 04:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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HSBC - lost my fight

I signed off on a first time home buyer Fannie Mae Freddie Mac 30 year fixed BUT at closing I ended up with a 100% ARM that I signed against my attorney's advice because it was first a 100% loan saving my the $10,000 I had set aside, and maybe more importantly because the people I bought the house from moved out and this was my 4th attempt at closing. (other delays broker said were because he was so backed up) The mortgage broker assured me that a refi would be no problem and it could be done before the interest rate jumped 3 years out.

The broker faxed me an APR at my attorney's office whiel we waited for the loan package, that showed my interest jumping at the end of 3 years. Inside the loan package (that I never looked at for 2 years when I wanted to refinance) it had the interest jumping after 2 years, not three! AND at a higher rate. There was also a penalty to refi under 3 years that amounted to one half of the interest on the note. Seriously. So I waited until three years, but by that time my son became disabled, I lost work and income and things were looking bleak.

OK so I pay now over 12% interest. Well, I should say after 38 months of paying on time and without too much of a complaint. But I tried to reduce my interest, get a modification, anything to help and got the run around. I called HUD and was told that the bank would not talk with me until I was more than 3 months late. It took me a couple of months to get the courage to stop paying my mortgage but I did stop four months ago.

In the meantime I was told that for one month's payment, as a sign of good faith on my part, they would consider modifying the loan for up to 18 months at 5% interest BUT I needed to come up with the $2,200 good faith payment. I asked them to put the offer in writing and they said they don't do that. I told them I would think about it. Meanwhile I call back, a different guy, a completely different story, the mod has been approved, all it is waiting on is the $2,200. I told him I didn't have it (I did) and he said how much do you have and I said I could pay $1,000 tops. He asked for my credit card number saying he could work with that. I got cold feet and said Id call back.

Called back, an entirely different story, mod NOT approved, said they dont even begin work on it until $2,000 is paid in "good faith" (this phone call was recorded) There was no note on the computer of any approval. However they would review my mod application IF I GAVE THEM $2,200. Without the $2,200 they would not approve the loan mod. I asked to speak to someone with the modification department and was told there is no number. Asked who to fax or email, told customer service handles everything. Asked to put everything in writing, told no. Got cold feet and said I would call back.

Found a fax number for the foreclosure department and sent a request for a mod, two weeks later received a letter in the mail saying that "at this time we can not offer you a modification"

I am waiting to be foreclosed on, the sad thing is had I kept up my payments and just moved Iwould have my credit score in the upper 700's. Now that Im behind not only is my credit score tanking but two credit card companies yanked my card. I have no credit debt other than my home mortgage. I paid everything on time. (past due medical bills kept my score formthe 800s) So now my credit is ruined, my house is soon to be in foreclosure.

So on my way to the heap of all the rest of the foolish subprime mortgage holders I just want to know one thing, Was the request for "good faith money" a scam?

This loan was sold twice before it ended up at HSBC two years ago.


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Old 03-12-2009, 05:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

Sanford,
This sounds like a horrible story. The part about asking for your credit card number over the phone and the other info just plain sends red flags up for me. And I thought WAMU was bad! These guys sound pretty shady. Their unwillingness to put it in writing shows they are not acting in good faith.Something sounds amiss here. Their actions warrant a complaint being filed. Consider calling the Attorney General's office (Consumer division) in your state. If it is a national bank, file a complaint with the Comptroller of the National Banks.
WAMU wanted asked me to make a "contribution" payment which I did not have. I told them to tack it on to the back end of the loan which they did without much problem. I think you did right by not paying any additional fees under such shady circumstances. Go with your gut.

Have you thought about using naca.org? Filing BK if that bill passes?
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Old 03-12-2009, 06:17 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

In a similar situation, I have filed complaints against HSBC through the Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies - Real Estate Dept. and received notice back that there wasn't enough evidence against HSBC or the appraiser (house value inflated by $100K) to warrant any investigation. These guys are slippery. Hopefully they will get theirs.
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Old 03-12-2009, 06:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

Hi Sanford,

Sorry about all HSBC has put you through, but it's par for the course. You are not alone. My 2nd is w/ HSBC. HSBC is one of the worst predatory lenders/servicers out there and one of the most difficult to deal with re loan modifications. I will short sell or most likely foreclose due to dead market (lucky to be covered by CA non-recourse laws). I'm $100K underwater so it's not worth me trying for a loan mod unless HSBC agreed to a reasonable settlement (they ignored my offer ) and my 1st (CW) agreed to reduce my principal balance. Not gonna happen. No lenders are giving principal balances yet (if ever). I gave up on HSBC a long time ago. There are others w/HSBC loans on this site who also have not had much luck w/ them. I think a few here have gotten short term, rate reductions. But, my financial goals are long-term at this point. Not short term. Plus, I don't want to answer to predatory loan sharks anymore. I want them gone from my life and not making another cent from me. Ever again. Your instinct to not trust their words without having something in writing was right on! The fact that they would not put anything in writing tells you they had no intention of honoring whatever they were offering. The 1st rule re loan mods is to not deal w/ the collection dept. of any lender. Deal w/ the loan mod dept ONLY. Collection reps will say or do anything to make you part with your $$$$. That's their sole goal. There certainly is a loan mod dept. That info is on this site somewhere, keep reading for it. I don't remember where specifically it is listed. The moderator, ***, may stop by and provide it for you (if you still want ot try for a mod with HSBC). But, I just wanted to say good for you for not falling for their collection tactics! From what I've heard thus far, HSBC has not been doing much for distressed homeowners other than short-term interest rate reductions (only for 6 mos at a time and then make homeowners go through their bogus process every 6 mos). The truth is sometimes lenders/investors make more $$$ on a distressed loan by foreclosing vs. modifying the loan for a borrower. So, no matter how hard the borrower tries to remedy the situation, the lender moves toward foreclosure anyways.

Also, not all subprime borrowers are "foolish." Many were (too) trustworthy and had no clue the real estate / mortgage lending industries were so saturated with crooks out to dupe unsuspecting borrowers/homeowners. Many borrowers qualified for prime loans but were steered into subprime loans due to high commissions the mortgage brokers/loan officers made on subprimes. The system was rigged against homeowners during this period of mass mortgage lending fraud (IMO).

Also, you may want to check out the Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure thread. If your file moves toward foreclosure, Prof Shays and other homeowners on that thread provide great info on the proper way to walk away from the property and how to protect oneself legally. There's also a few threads addressing HSBC loans. Check them out.

Do your homework here. Get informed. Read, read, read. Keep asking questions. Your answers will come. Good luck. You are in good company here.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

Irish, the "foolish" term I used is in reaction to what most people say when I tell them I took the bait. They say, "You fool!"

I am extremely fortunate I guess since I have some money to move and find a new place...to rent, knowing that they can't get all of my money! My credit is ruined (for a few years) and someone will buy my house dirt cheap and make a nice profit off of it in a few years. I just hope they can live with all the bad mojo I will be leaving behind in my wake. But one question keeps buggin me, Why is it that they will not budge on the 12% they are charging me, causing me to default, losing 40% of their investment in the process just so someone can buy my house and finance a less amount at 4.5%? If they would re-do my interest rate to 6% they come out much better in the long run. Maybe that's why they need a trillion dollars to keep their doors open, their idiots!

This Daily Show clip is hysterical, if you can laugh at how screwed up all this is.

CNBC Gives Financial Advice | The Daily Show | Comedy Central
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

Sanford,

Re why banks don't do the obvious re loan mods? That's the million $$$$ question we all ask at the beginning of our journeys to try to get the banks to give fair, sustainable loan mods that would seemingly work for all parties. If you keep reading here, you will find answers to similar type questions. Basically, what I've learned is the banks/investors take the road that makes them the most $$$ in the end. It really has nothing to do with "saving homes" or what makes sense (to the average, reasonable person). Some have insurance that covers their losses so they choose the foreclosure route. Mortgage loan investors were greedy in this mess and are pyssed also over their losses. So, they play hardball with borrowers. Investors (who authorize the loan mods and the terms) remain in denial over the mortgages' true values and refuse to forgive principal balances (they need to pretend the mortgages are still worth the orig loan amounts so their balance sheets are propped up, otherwise everyone would know just how insolvent they really are which means FDIC takes them over). They don't want that. HSBC bragged for awhile over not needing any gov't bailouts like the others, but I believe recently got in line for a bailout too, to prop up their books/balance sheets. I think HSBC got hit big too by Madoff ponzi scheme ($40 billion ???? ). So, karma does work ! Plus, these lenders/servicers are understaffed, high turnovers, etc. Complete morons are running these mods with the Great Oz's (investors) pulling their strings like puppets re which loans get modified and for what terms. That's it in a nutshell. It's a complete, utter miserable (and IMO, useless) process on all ends. I tried to hang in there the first 6-9 mos of trying to seek a decent loan mod - to no avail. Both CW and HSBC: complete loan shark organizations. Started, run and/or sold by complete Bernie Madoff types, except they made sure their financial strategies were completely legal in how they screwed us all. Then, all the waiting for one magic loan mod program after another. I finally accepted there is NO magic mod program out there, nor would there ever be one. They all suck IMO. The only mod I would settle for is a real one: lowered fixed rate for the life of the loan plus principal balance reduced to current market value. Otherwise, IMO, one is settling for a predatory loan mod that only benefits the loan sharks again . So, I'm chalking the whole experience up to a "teachable moment" and vowing to never be in this type of situation ever again.

FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU. FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME!

Keep us posted on your journey.
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Old 03-13-2009, 03:56 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

Thanks! I feel foolish even now thinking I still have a chance to keep my house. I'll be walking away from the $20,000 in improvements and will be totally screwing my neighbors by my foreclosure hurting their home value.

The White House keeps saying this bailout is to help keep people in their homes. Giving me hope, but what do I know. More than likely the bailout helps to keep lenders from losing money (as you said insurance - AIG?) thus leaves the borrowers no leverage.
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:26 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

Hi Sanford! I'm sorry to hear of your problems with HSBC. I have a loan with them also, and they refused to help me with a modification, too. I understand your frustration. No matter how each of us got into the situation we're in, it's devastating. I know it's hard not to do, but try not to blame yourself for accepting the loan terms you did three years ago. You should be able to trust the professionals to honor what they say they will do. HSBC is one of the mortgage companies who has yet to participate in any of the government-backed programs. I don't know why that is. Maybe there is some way our government or the people will put enough pressure on them to work with borrowers who want to keep their homes. Until then, we'll just have to pray that it all works out. Again, I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. You're not alone. We're all in this together, and we're doing the best we can.
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

HSBC Holdings plc is a public limited company incorporated in England and Wales in 1990, and headquartered in London since 1993.[1] As of 2008, it is both the world's largest banking group and the world's largest company according to a composite measure by Forbes magazine.[2][3] The group was founded from The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation based in Hong Kong, the acronym of which led to the current name. Today, whilst Hong Kong still continues to be a significant source of income for the group, no single geographical area dominates earnings. Recent acquisitions and expansion in China are returning HSBC to part of its roots.[4] HSBC is Europe's biggest bank and has an enormous operational base in Asia and significant lending, investment, and insurance activities around the world. The company has a global reach and financial fundamentals matched by few other banking or financial multinationals.[5]


Role in subprime crisis

In November 2002 HSBC expanded in the United States, spending £9bn (US$15.5bn) to acquire Household Finance Corporation (HFC), a US credit card issuer and subprime lender.[25] In a 2003 cover story, The Banker noted "when banking historians look back, they may conclude that [it] was the deal of the first decade of the 21st century".[26] Under the new name of HSBC Finance, the division was the second largest subprime lender in the US,[27] prompting criticism from activist investor Knight Vinke.
The business indeed turned sour, costing HSBC some US$62bn. In March 2009, HSBC announced that it would shut down the branch network of its HSBC Finance arm in the U.S., leading to nearly 6,000 job losses, and leaving only the credit card business to continue operating.[28][29]
Chairman Stephen Green admitted that "it’s an acquisition we wish we hadn’t done with the benefit of hindsight"[30]; analyst Colin Morton said, "the takeover was an absolute disaster". [31] [29]
Although it was at the centre of the subprime storm, the wider group has weathered the economic crisis better than other global banks. According to Bloomberg, "HSBC is one of world’s strongest banks by some measures."[32] When HM Treasury required all UK banks to increase their capital in October 2007, the group transferred £750 million to London within hours, and announced that it had just lent £4 billion to other UK banks.[33] In March 2009, it announced that it had made US$5.73bn of profit in 2008 and announced a £12.5bn (US$17.7bn; HK$138bn) rights issue to enable it to buy other banks that were struggling to survive.[34] However, uncertainty over the rights' issue's implications for institutional investors caused volatility in the Hong Kong stock market: on 9 March 2009 HSBC's share price fell 24.14%, with 12 million shares sold in the last few seconds of trading.[35]


As of April 2, 2008, according to Forbes magazine, HSBC was the fourth largest bank in the world in terms of assets ($2,348.98 billion), the second largest in terms of sales ($146.50 billion), the largest in terms of market value ($180.81 billion). It was also the most profitable bank in the world with $19.13 billion in net income in 2007 (compared to Citigroup's $3.62 billion and Bank of America's $14.98 billion in the same period).[40]
HSBC is by far the largest bank both in the United Kingdom and in Hong Kong and prints most of Hong Kong's local currency in its own name. Since the end of 2005, HSBC has been the largest banking group in the world by Tier 1 capital.[41]


Yeah, us against them... some chance we got.
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:14 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

You're absolutely right. It's gonna take a miracle.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:13 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

Sanford; your first post said you signed to a Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac backed loan so one of them would be your investor and HSBC would be your loan servicer(the bank you make payments to and call for loan mod efforts). The new government program can help some people who have Fannie or Freddie backed loans. If you call Fannie at 1-800-732-6643 and ask if they back your loan, they'll let you know. I don't know Freddie's number. It's worth checking out due to new programs. Fannie and Freddie are the investors who back more than half the mortgage loans, but they don't service loans or have direct contact with their borrowers; so many people have them as investors but don't realize this and are missing out on help they can get
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:59 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

It was supposed to be a fannie or a freddie but at closing I dont remember anything about it. But it is worth a phone call that's for sure. Thanks.
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Old 03-16-2009, 03:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

to check and see if Fannie owns it go to

Does Fannie Mae Own Your Mortgage
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Old 03-16-2009, 05:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

thanks for the link!
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Old 03-16-2009, 05:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

My loan was originated thru Accredited and sold to HSBC
fannie mae said they didn't own it
neither did Freddie Mac
here's their site and it give results right away but I wonder how accurate these are
https://ww3.freddiemac.com/corporate/
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Old 03-17-2009, 07:48 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

They asked for my social security number online. I think Ill call them instead of doing it online. Fannie didnt ask for the social.

Thanks, the website had a lot of information on it that I didnt know about.
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: HSBC - lost my fight

Before you give up, have you called HUD Hope counselors in your area? You can do a phone call with them, or go see them. I did this as leverage with Homecomings, and so far it has helped. The counselor talks to them, or I do. We got a response within 3 days. It is not the best, a little lower payment, still kept the adjustable rate, and did not waive any lates, etc. We will counter tomorrow, and see what happens. I would not give up, keep calling, faxing, do the Produce the Note, QWR, etc. But definitely get one of the govt. agencies on your side. I was told by someone inside that they pay the lenders to work with you. nothing like a little motivation. good luck,
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