IMB/OWB wont mod me even after forbearance of perfect pay record

[darkdays]

I hadn't recalled that there is the second mortgage for $699 a month. You would need a considerable increase in income quickly.

[imlars]

Originally Posted by darkdays

I spoke with someone in the escalations department and asked her if I am determined to be eligible are they then going to use the old "investor won't approve it" line? You should be able to determine up front based on who the investor is whether they are approving mods or not and if not, let the borrower know so we can move on to our next plan. She said it is possible that the investor won't approve it and claimed they won't know until they put the package together for the investor. If there are investors who are not approving any mods they know that up front so should stop wasting time. I don't get why if someone has 2 mortgages those lenders don't work simultaneously to work out a mod on both. It makes no sense to go through all the work on one mod and not give the borrow help on the second because if the second is foreclosed upon what difference did the 1st mortgage mod make? I can't imagine the stress of having to apply for a mod on 2 different loans.

Right now this is a voluntary program. If the investor doesn't want to participate they don't have to. If your loan is not a government backed loan your chances of getting a mod are next to none. While you are waiting for the bogus review of your loan, your delinquent amount is going up and up. Then the only thing they will offer you is a 6 month repayment plan that you can't afford. I've seen people lose their homes due to these tactics. If IMB is your lender, find a BK attorney and start exploring other options cause it doesn' look good.
First mortgages get FMV for the home, the second can only get what is left after that. So if you do not equity in the home there is nothing for the second lender foreclose on. If the second goes to charge off, it is deemed as uncollectable and is sold to a collection agency for cents on the dollar. Once the collection agency gets it it is considered as an unsecured loan and you can take care of it through a Chapter 13.

[pamelabe]

Hey All:

I finally caught up to all the postings going back and forth and thanks very much for contributing. I just did my worksheet with NACA and net $4870 mo, have 2 renters already considering another which will add another $550month to the net, so without the 3rd renter that brings my estimated affordability $1877 (after all expeses) minus taxes ($550mo) which now brings me to $1337 to the bank. Would $1337 work? If not... then if I add another renter at 550(gross) that would bring my payment to them roughly around $2427. I am preping my final numbers to NACA on the 4th and not sure what to submit that they will take.

The other note I am not getting clear about is it really that NO number will work for them? This loan is not Fannie or Freddie. And how do you figure NPV? Nothing is selling in the neighborhood and the basement was just flooded twice because of the Atlanta GA rains, so doubt a sale would happen.

Now what do you guys/gals think?

[flagirl4444]

They may only include 75% of the rental income, to account for vacancies and maintenance, etc. You can check the guidelines to be sure. Regardless of what the bank says, in reality can you actually afford $1877 per month? You mentioned that some months your income is only $2k, and you also have a 2nd mortgage payment of $699 plus credit card bills. What happens if a renter moves out?

Remember, the bank is not just concerned with how much they will get if they foreclose now. They assume that the likelihood you will redefault is quite high and that if that happens, they are only putting off foreclosure for several months, at which time the home may be worth even less and they will lose more money. That's one reason they would rather go ahead and foreclose now, take their loss and get the loan off their books.

At $1377 PI payment, they would have to do 1% for the life of the loan. Or they would need to forbear a large amount of the principal, which is not likely.

[pamelabe]

Thanks Flagirl:

The maintenance is in the expenses which me and my tax preparer have already deducted because it gets recorded as a business. I have to report that income. I dont remember saying my income is 2k. It isnt ever that low. But with regard to the renters, I just repost and find more if need be. I am in the process of paying off the cc's. I am not going to stay here for 30 years but the next 5 yes.

Can you tell me if this really comes down to numbers and not that my loan is in some pool? I feel like I could continue to bend over backwards in working with the numbers but if the excuse that my loan is in some pool and they will NEVER mod me then the numbers is just a waste of time. Right?

[pamelabe]

Thanks Flagirl:

The maintenance is in the expenses which me and my tax preparer have already deducted because it gets recorded as a business. I have to report that income. I dont remember saying my income is 2k. It isnt ever that low. But with regard to the renters, I just repost and find more if need be. I am in the process of paying off the cc's. I am not going to stay here for 30 years but the next 5 yes.

Can you tell me if this really comes down to numbers and not that my loan is in some pool? I feel like I could continue to bend over backwards in working with the numbers but if the excuse that my loan is in some pool and they will NEVER mod me then the numbers is just a waste of time. Right?

[flagirl4444]

I must have gotten the income mixed up with someone else. Sorry about that. Anyway, it is very possible the loan is in a pool that can't be modified. I would ask to see the pooling & service agreement for the group your loan is in, it could be that P&S agreement states no modifications whatsoever, or that no terms can be extended, or no change in interest rates or principal, etc.

[davephx]

pamelabe - Even if you have maintenance etc in your expenses they only take 75% of gross probably for a risk margin of vacancies higher than current maintenance etc.

Your 1337 is about workable for amortization with the additional renters (net of taxes but I don't think you mentioned insurance)...

But they probably require verification that you actually have stable renters not just new ones - they use your 2008 tax return Sch E to verifiy etc. Maybe they would accept rental agreements have no idea.

But again.. sorry about the buts.... a more important question is the private investor and if in a mortgage pool that may not allow modifications as flagirl pointed out. Hopefully the servicer can tell you that but that is a deal killer sadly and as was said private investors do not have to participate.

If its a single investor (Not in a pool) they may be willing to work with you but its the servicer that has to submit to them etc as I understand it.

[darkdays]

Originally Posted by imlars

Right now this is a voluntary program. If the investor doesn't want to participate they don't have to. If your loan is not a government backed loan your chances of getting a mod are next to none. While you are waiting for the bogus review of your loan, your delinquent amount is going up and up. Then the only thing they will offer you is a 6 month repayment plan that you can't afford. I've seen people lose their homes due to these tactics. If IMB is your lender, find a BK attorney and start exploring other options cause it doesn' look good.
First mortgages get FMV for the home, the second can only get what is left after that. So if you do not equity in the home there is nothing for the second lender foreclose on. If the second goes to charge off, it is deemed as uncollectable and is sold to a collection agency for cents on the dollar. Once the collection agency gets it it is considered as an unsecured loan and you can take care of it through a Chapter 13.

I know it is a voluntary program. Thanks for the advice but lots of speculation here. I don't have a second mortgage and BK is not the path I am on. Thanks anyway.

[darkdays]

Originally Posted by pamelabe

Hey All:

I finally caught up to all the postings going back and forth and thanks very much for contributing. I just did my worksheet with NACA and net $4870 mo, have 2 renters already considering another which will add another $550month to the net, so without the 3rd renter that brings my estimated affordability $1877 (after all expeses) minus taxes ($550mo) which now brings me to $1337 to the bank. Would $1337 work? If not... then if I add another renter at 550(gross) that would bring my payment to them roughly around $2427. I am preping my final numbers to NACA on the 4th and not sure what to submit that they will take.

The other note I am not getting clear about is it really that NO number will work for them? This loan is not Fannie or Freddie. And how do you figure NPV? Nothing is selling in the neighborhood and the basement was just flooded twice because of the Atlanta GA rains, so doubt a sale would happen.

Now what do you guys/gals think?

That is definitely in the right direction. Just keep in mind, Indymac will only count the rentals at 20% unless you can provide tax returns showing this income for the past 2 years (according to Indymac this is on their website so you can check this info there to be sure I got it right). If you have received this income for the past 2 years they will then consider it at 75%.

[darkdays]

Originally Posted by pamelabe

Thanks Flagirl:

The maintenance is in the expenses which me and my tax preparer have already deducted because it gets recorded as a business. I have to report that income. I dont remember saying my income is 2k. It isnt ever that low. But with regard to the renters, I just repost and find more if need be. I am in the process of paying off the cc's. I am not going to stay here for 30 years but the next 5 yes.

Can you tell me if this really comes down to numbers and not that my loan is in some pool? I feel like I could continue to bend over backwards in working with the numbers but if the excuse that my loan is in some pool and they will NEVER mod me then the numbers is just a waste of time. Right?

Pamelabe: just a reminder. It's gross not net that the 31% is calculated off of.

[darkdays]

Originally Posted by pamelabe

Thanks Flagirl:

The maintenance is in the expenses which me and my tax preparer have already deducted because it gets recorded as a business. I have to report that income. I dont remember saying my income is 2k. It isnt ever that low. But with regard to the renters, I just repost and find more if need be. I am in the process of paying off the cc's. I am not going to stay here for 30 years but the next 5 yes.

Can you tell me if this really comes down to numbers and not that my loan is in some pool? I feel like I could continue to bend over backwards in working with the numbers but if the excuse that my loan is in some pool and they will NEVER mod me then the numbers is just a waste of time. Right?

I would suspect that the numbers is slightly more the case than the investor pool although this is just my hope. If our investor absolutely won't do mods why bother going through the paperwork all over again. They could simply say our investor won't do mods and be done with it. It's not like Indymac doesn't have another 120,000 loans that are seeking mods. There's just no way of knowing.

[pamelabe]

I have gone over my numbers and aquired another renter so the numbers NACA and I are working are these: 90,840 gross, 5382 net monthly, expenses which include business and HELOC are 3000 mo. If they approve a 2% PITI that puts me at $2202 PITI with IMB getting $1552. At 3% then $2420 PITI with IMB getting 1770. I can do this.

Ive had renters for 1 year and going on another. I am used to renters being from California. Now what do you guys think?

[darkdays]

pamelabe, I love your fight and determination. I think your numbers look good. 90,840 gross x 31% = s $2346.70 a month. They are suppose to go below the 3% since that is what it will take to get to your 31% number so that might work out to 2.75%. You're right, YOU CAN DO THIS! Keep fighting on!! GOOD LUCK!! BTW, Indymac said they do not run the npv test one at a time but wait until Friday morning and run all that need to get run. It takes about a week or so to get through the whole batch so keep that in mind as you wait.

[pamelabe]

Thanks darkdays, you guys keep me going. I am constantly worried, sleepless and thinking all the time to save my house. This process has consumed me and I wont let go until I get a physical karate chop. I was told tonight that the state of Georgia can foreclose in 30 days! So if they say no then what? Can I sue them to stop it temporarily? If there is anything more I can do please tell me. I hope you are getting somewhere with yours. Keep me posted.

[pamelabe]

Originally Posted by flagirl4444

I must have gotten the income mixed up with someone else. Sorry about that. Anyway, it is very possible the loan is in a pool that can't be modified. I would ask to see the pooling & service agreement for the group your loan is in, it could be that P&S agreement states no modifications whatsoever, or that no terms can be extended, or no change in interest rates or principal, etc.

Hi Darkdays and Flagirl444, check this answer out from a broker friend who has helped me tremendously in understanding the rationaal. Please let me know what you think of her response to Flagirls4444 suggestion.

"She is correct in suggesting this, in the sense that there is a clause in the agreement between investor and servicer that addresses note modification. However, logically, that would be the case for every loan. For example, if I am an investor and you are servicing my loans, I would make sure there is an agreement between us that you could not arbitrarily modify those loans without consent as that would change the value of my investment.

I dug up an old loan purchase contract between my old company and Indymac and here is some verbiage from the contract (I swear I save everything)


Section 3.02 Representations and Warranties as to Individual Mortgage Loans.
References in this Section to percentages of Mortgage Loans refer in each case to the percentage of the aggregate Stated Principal Balance of the Mortgage Loans as of the Cut-off Date. References to percentages of Mortgaged Properties refer, in each case, to the percentages of expected aggregate Stated Principal Balances of the related Mortgage Loans (determined as described in the preceding sentence). The Seller hereby represents and warrants to the Purchaser, as to each Mortgage Loan, as of the applicable Closing Date as follows:

(f) The terms of the Mortgage Note and the Mortgage have not been impaired, waived, altered or modified in any respect, except by written instruments which have been recorded to the extent any such recordation is required by law, or, necessary to protect the interest of the Purchaser.

This is saying that my company (Seller), once we have entered into a pool agreement/trade agreement with Indymac (Purchaser), that we could not alter or modify the loan. While we were only interim servicers (generally max 3 months), we couldnt just alter the note just because we wanted to because the loan wasnt ours to modify once we entered into a loan purchase agreement.

Your servicer cannot modify any of their loans without the investor's consent (because they dont 'own' the loan; they just administrate the collection of the monthly payment for a fee paid by the investor). Using your servicer's logic and the woman's logic below, no loan could ever be modified, because all of thier loans must be in some sort of special top-secret double -probation written-in-cement pool, which -we know is not the case.

Now, it may mean, that because of the current environment (and I am surmising here, but I bet Im right), investors have segmented their pools into 'modifiable' and 'non-modifiable' buckets, for whatever reason only know to them and is probably profit-driven (why else do banks do anything?), and may have even given the servicer a corral to work within the 'modifiable' bucket (I doubt it though). If the loan is in the 'modifiable' bucket, a new servicing agreement between investor and servicer would have to drawn.

I guess what I am saying is yes, your loan may well be in a pool that is deemed 'unmodifiable' - I guess my answer would be 'so what, big ****ing deal, do I qualify on my own, shut up, get a new agreement, its done every day.

What might be interesting is to find out when the pooling and servicing agreement was executed, because if it was drawn before they agreed to your forbearance, then they knew that they would never modify your loan and they were waiting around to see if your situation improved or if the market condidtions improved. For that reason, I would ask for a copy of the agreement. It would also be interesting to see if you can get a copy of a sample pool agreement of a loan that is not in a pool of un-modifiable loans. I doubt that they would give it to you, but thier response might be interesting.

I think at this point I would be tempted to go public - you are a single women paying 8.625% on an owner-occupied home, working but stricken by the economy like so many others, has made sacrifices trying to do the right thing, had great credit until you took the butt-pirate bank's advice back in February, the same bank that took your tax dollars in bailout money, the same servicer that shut down by the OTS for reckless banking practices and put into conservatorship of the FDIC (two government entities that are funded by your tax dollars - supposedly they did this to protect you the consermer), the same bank that is raping you at 8.625% where the going rate hovers at about 5% (this low interest rate is currently subsidized by the federal government via your tax dollars by the way), just so the same bank can fund the outrageous executive bonuses and jet fuel, etc.

[darkdays]

I know that feeling of being consumed. I had to take a couple of days off last week to regroup and rebuild my mental arsenal. The day before my foreclosure hearing, I was told by Indy's attorney that the foreclosure hearing would go forward mod in review or not, but then I received a call from Indy that they granted me an extension so they could continue the review process. My state's Commissioner of Banking called them and spoke to them. They told the Commission of Banking my income and asked if it had changed since February 09. I told the commisisoner that I had filed 3 mod apps since February and that my most recent financials were updated in September 09. Indy then called and told me that the problem was I failed to correctly document my income. Told them I followed the directions they gave me and the income is verifiable so they should decide how they want to receive the verification. They said the govt audits have them being very careful to get the correct paperwork, process through npv test and will get back to me. I'm sure they will but I probably won't like what they say :-) I keep checking the mailbox expecting to see that ugly denied letter again. Asked about in-house mods and was told no longer available, forbearance agreements no longer available. It's basically HAMP or repayment plan or short sale.

I received a notice from their atty rescheduling the foreclosure sale for January.

What stage are you at with your modification? My interest rate is high like yours. I am at 8.5%.

[darkdays]

Pamelabe: your broker friend has given some very interesting information. I will have to re-read and see how to use this information. I would think Indy can (and already has) re-negotiated with all of its so called investors so requesting copies of the agreements is a great idea. I can't see Indy wasting their time (translates to $$$ to them) processing mods if they know there is a pool that is not modifiable so I just don't buy their story. I asked verbally and in writing who my "private investor" is and have not received any response from anyone. Re-reading the HAMP FAQ it seems there are ways to could modify any loan they wanted to. Also, when Indy said they were going to offer HAMP to all eligible loans in their portfolio they did not say "unless the investor won't agree." Indy knows that they have non-GSE loans (I think it's about 85% non-GSE) so they should have determined which loans they could modify. I would love to find out my "private investor" is really just another bank (BOA, CHASE, etc.) Bring down this whole wall of shame!

[darkdays]

Keeping in mind my 60 day delay on my foreclosure that I received last week and today I receive a letter in the mail from IMB. It's in a regular envelope so I know it is bad news and I open it to find I was denied once again. I immediately contacted IMB because the date of the letter would indicate that one person was signing a denial letter while the application is still pending??? I received written confirmation within an hour that the application is still pending and that my file was updated this week and is waiting to go through the npv process. It should go tomorrow as they send all applications that are ready through to npv on Fridays. I'm suppose to have my answer next week. I'll keep you posted.

[MyHAMP]

Although our servicer is not willing to reveal who the investor is, I think I know it's U.S. Bank.

They were mentioned on the foreclosure documents so I guess that's not too far fetched..

[darkdays]

Thanks MyHAMP! I guess I better actually go read those foreclosure documents I received.

[imlars]

Originally Posted by MyHAMP

Although our servicer is not willing to reveal who the investor is, I think I know it's U.S. Bank.

They were mentioned on the foreclosure documents so I guess that's not too far fetched..

If you got the HAMP, Fannie or Freddie is your investor. If you want to know if it is Fannie or Freddie check out their .com's or you can request the information from the servicer in writing. I'd have it notarized for good measure so there is valid documentation of the request.

[MyHAMP]

Originally Posted by imlars

If you got the HAMP, Fannie or Freddie is your investor. If you want to know if it is Fannie or Freddie check out their .com's or you can request the information from the servicer in writing. I'd have it notarized for good measure so there is valid documentation of the request.

That would be news to me..

Under HAMP, there are GSE and non-GSE loans. Even some of the guidelines are different - like the regulation on forbearance-limits.

I checked the .com system at the beginning. Our loan is neither Fannie nor Freddie owned.

I told that our counselor and he told us that our investor is probably trying to sell them the loan in the HAMP-process - whatever that means.

[davephx]

Freddie, Fannie, Ginnie, and non GSE's who receive Tarp funds or those that choose to participate all can do HAMPS (FHA-HAMP for Ginnie usually).

The problem is they each have different rules.

[darkdays]

Originally Posted by imlars

If you got the HAMP, Fannie or Freddie is your investor. If you want to know if it is Fannie or Freddie check out their .com's or you can request the information from the servicer in writing. I'd have it notarized for good measure so there is valid documentation of the request.

Non-GSE loans are eligible for HAMP as well. Not all HAMP trial mods are for Fannie/ Freddie loans.