Wells and Citi loan mod denials continue

[wayunderwater]

I have been following this very helpful forum for a long time and until recently had remained very hopeful that we could keep our house. Here is a brief recap of our story which hopefully help others navigate this daunting process:


Primary residence owe about $600k on first to Wells Fargo and $200k to Citi on 2nd (HELOC). Current value approximately $390k.


My wife and I just had a baby (our first and he is awesome!) and our salaries have been cut by a combined $50k/year. When it rains, it pours.


I have been working on getting a loan modification from both lenders since October 2008 since part of the upcoming salary reduction was known at that time and it was clear that we could not make the scheduled payments or sell. I have very detailed notes and proof of faxes for every communication and request and I jumped through all hoops several times for each bank by re-submitting documentation that "expired" or was lost. I tried to remain current throughout the process because we still had income but it seems that being responsible (by staying current) has worked against us. I have been formally denied by both banks because it was either "not in the investor's best interest" or they used incorrect information to determine the need for a modification.

1st Mortgage- Wells Fargo


I was most recently told by the representative at Wells that my investor was not participating in the Obama Making Home Affordable HAMP (Home Affordable Modification) program. It became clear that she was just going through standard denials and knew almost nothing about my case. When we went through my income and expenses, it became clear that they were not working with my current information and when I said that, she said that I need to re-apply again. I hung up and called the Wells Fargo Executive Resolution team posted on this forum.

I spoke with Jennifer who was incredibly helpful. She apologized for the inconvenience, asked me to send in a few items that they did not have current and said that she would deliver it to Loss Mit and that I would hear back within 30 days. She also gave me her direct number and said that she will be my contact if I have any questions in the meantime. It turns out that my investor is Citi which amazed me since they also have my 2nd and the 1st was originated and serviced by Wells. I know that Citi is participating in the HAMP program so the previous contact was just lying.

I remain current on my first (which now seems like a mistake) but will not be able to make next months payment.

2nd Mortgage (Citi HELOC)

I have stopped paying on the 2nd (now 60+ days late) since they have flat out denied any modification or short payoff (which I offered). I have been in touch with their executive resolution team also but they have been unable to offer any better solutions. The house is upside down over $200k on the first alone so I do not know what they expect to accomplish. Larry (at Citi) who denied my most recent mod request has been very helpful telling me that the new 2nd Lien program will apply if the first is modified under the HAMP. Now someone from Citi named Josephine calls me to ask for any payments and tells me that they cannot suspend their process for collections while they wait for the 1st mod (even though it is Citi as the investor on the 1st who we are waiting on). I do not know what they will do but we have decided that it is better to lose our house now and keep some savings rather than deplete our savings completely and then lose it anyway.

I will try to keep this thread current, but if anyone has productive advice or suggestions in the meantime please feel free to share.

The only thing that I am sure of is that one should use the executive resolution team numbers from this forum and do not bother with the normal channels or reasoning with the normal collections people because they are just frustrating.

[RobRaposo]

That's why i'm going the lawyer route, whether you qualify or not is NOT up to Citi. There are new guidelines if you fall in within the scale, you're in. It's not in Citi's best intrest to let you Loan Mod, that's why they denied you and played dumb when I contacted them for my Mortgage.

[wayunderwater]

Thanks Rob. I should clarify; I have retained an experienced attorney experienced in modification too but I am just using them for advice and doing the negotiation on my own. Hopefully persistence will pay. I think that you are right about their "best interest" because up until this point I have been paying full rate. Now they are "calling my bluff" I suppose.

[RobRaposo]

I'll be retaining a lawyer this week, I need to finish my hardship letter and a couple of odds and ends and OH YES, the PAYMENT. I really got pissed when Citi played dumb, basically calling me stupid for believing them. My layer says done deal in 90 days. That would be nice.

[PERSISTENT32]

Try NACA as well. www.NACA.com for assistance check out the website. I had to stay persistent as well and the banks want you to at least have a surplus between 100-200 at the end of the month if its any higher they think you can afford your payments. Also if you become too late ask for a forbearance plan with half of your mortgage payments until your modification gets approved.

[wayunderwater]

Thank you persistent32; I do not qualify for NACA (I believe) because we have other properties. I will ask for forbearance because I will be late on the 1st as of the 15th and I am 60 days plus on the second. Thank you for your input.

[SanJoseGal]

wayunderwater-

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I feel your pain. From your mortgage amount I am going to guess you are in California. I am in a very similar boat. We owe 550k with Wells Fargo, BofA is our investor and 150k on our 2nd with Chase. Home value is currently $490.

We have got denied 2 times in the last month from WF stating that we have a defict on our income to debt. No s**t Sherlock, hence why we need a loan mod, right? Our deficit was $36.00, that is thirty six dollars. Pretty rediculous.I am reapplying for the 3rd time in the morning showing a surplus of $170.

Can you provide me with the executive phone number and/or Jennifer's number?

Thanks for sharing and best of luck. I will share any insight I get from WF.

Cheers!

Taryn

[ugh_2009]

SanJoseGal,

The number for the executive office is 1 800 853-8516.

I spoke to Jennifer this morning, had to place my first call to the executive office. WF decided to deny my 4 month old mod request because of 'lack of documentation'..

[SanJoseGal]

Do you have her 5 digit extension?

[ugh_2009]

I didn't need one, I just waited and someone answered. You might have to wait till Monday.

[wayunderwater]

Update: I am now 21 days late with my July payment on the first and coming up on 90 days late for the Citi HELOC. The only word that I have heard from Wells (1st) is that they needed another signed letter with a more current date (because of how long this process takes). I faxed the letter and left a message with Jennifer at the Executive offices to get the status. I spoke with Van at Citi today. He wanted me to pay one month so that I did not get to 90 days late. I told him that I cannot pay until I have a sustainable plan and that I cannot afford the current situation. He told me that Citi has not completed a single HELOC modification under the Obama (Making Home Affordable) plan. He said that a HELOC is like a credit card, not a second mortgage and they will not modify it under this plan. Does anyone know if he is correct? I thought that the HELOC problem was a large contributor to the need for the second lien program.

[wayunderwater]

The Wells Fargo Borrower Portal - Loan Status Inquiry (website) now says "we are unable to provide information about your loan through this website". It most recently said that it was pending receipt of documents which was only because one of the dates on a letter was "too old".

[wayunderwater]

I called Wells again today and left another message at the executive offices and then called the interest only department of loan servicing. Leslie was helpful and said that they had done an appraisal and sent it along to the negotiator on 7/21. She also said that it typically takes 1-month once the negotiator has it to reach a resolution. She said that my file had been "escalated" so it may be done more quickly.

[Hope4aNewDay]

Persistent 32,

I am more than 90 days late on Wells Fargo 1st. Just got a letter from a Wells Fargo Lawyer regarding starting foreclosure process. What is a forbearance and how do you request a forbearance while you are trying to work on a loan modification. I live in Florida, can anyone suggest legitimate legal counsel.

[wayunderwater]

Does anyone understand what the value of a federal modification program is if the banks do not choose to use it?

Update: After waiting and calling and leaving more messages for my rep at the "Executive Offices" of Wells Fargo I finally received a call today. It was my rep Jennifer and she said that I have been denied for the Making Home Affordable modification by my investor (Citi). She said that they went down to 4.75% and I still had a deficit. She offered a forbearance and then reduced payments starting in September (saving about $500/month). I asked if it would reduce my rate or change terms and she said no, but we can re-evaluate it in 3 months. So they want me to make partial payments for now and keep hoping that they will negotiate terms later. I told her that I need it in writing and that I cannot make payments until I have a sustainable agreement. We got cut off and I tried calling back but had to leave a message.

[mel239]

Rob Raposo-where did you find info that 'its not up to citi" if you fall into the HAMP guidelines-alot of us qualify but are being rejected or given ridiculous mods

[phil413]

Wayunderwater,

Citi is lying. I helped my mother get a modification (HAMP)with Citibank Mortg and right now she has one more payment in the trial period. During the trial she is paying $763.00 PITI. Her payment was $1261 PITI. After the trial period her payment will be $586.00 PITI. She owes $175,000. They reduced her interest to 2% I believe it was 7% before. They deferred principle of about 11,000 to get her at the 31% of gross.

So for them to say they have not modified anyone under HAMP is not true. It did not even take long for her to have this done.

[wayunderwater]

Thanks for the input Phil. It seems that they tell you whatever they think will make you pay. Congrat's on getting your mother's mod through. It seems like a great program when they actually use it. It looks like foreclosure is eminent on this one.

[phil413]

Wayunderwater you should read success stories for both Wells Fargo and Citi and don't give up. Make sure you have the correct phone numbers/email for the VP or executives for the company.

I had my loan modified Jan 09 with GMAC and now am waiting on response for another one under the HAMP. My balance is 945,000 so I am above the max allowed but I asked them to defer the balance so I could qualify. I am waiting for an answer and was told should know by Tuesday. My second Wells Fargo told me if I am successful in the mod under HAMP they will also modify my 2nd. I probably won't get the HAMP mod but I am hopeful they find another mod for me. I submitted my paper work on the 5th of this month but called the executive office last Thursday because they keep saying they did not have my paper work and I got a call from the mod dept the next day and told me in 3 days they would have an answer. I will call them Tuesday to see if I was approved. I was told that the banks have more options now to offer homeowners. Currently I pay 3% PIT for 5 years but with a jumbo loan I still need it lower than that.

[current123]

Wayunderwater

If Citi received TARP money from the government then they are obligated to help homeowers like us. Wells & BOA received TARP money and are helping homeowers. Please note that the HAMP is applicable only to your 1st mortgage. Regarding your 2nd mortgage please go to this link.
Making Home Affordable - Release: Obama Administration Announces New Details on Making Home Affordable Program

Let me assure you that this HAMP process is not easy... it's like going thru a needle hole with a crooked thread.... but the end result will be worthwhile if they approved your modification request. My advice is to keep yourself educated on the HAMP guidelines and have the guideline handy to fax to the negotiator in case they are saying that you do not qualify and request their reply in writing.

Under the HAMP program there is a waterfall that the servicer should follow: Decrease your interest up to 2% in which case they only reduce your interest to 4.75%. Term out the loan up to 40 years. This will significantly reduced your monthly payment. Then if it still did not reach 31% (DTI) then to forebear the principal. Services may reduce the principal at their discretion.

Some investor approves borrower using their own program if they think it is more advantage to the borrower rather than the HAMP. In my case, I requested for a HAMP but was approved under investors (BOA) program. 3.5% for 480 months verbally approved but they have to go thru another approval since BOA guideline change. Of course, nothing is final until you sign docs and closed the deal. So I'm still waiting......

Dont give up!!!!!!

[tc4gold]

HI,

If this is of any help, I too am in CA, had a 1st (450k w/First Fed) and 2nd (345k w/national city). I just stopped paying the 2nd, if they foreclose they get nothing because they have to pay off the first to try and sell and as it won't sell for even what is owed on the first they won't it. Just don't pay and put in writing an offer of settlement of 10% of the loan balance (make sure you have access to the cash or a friend who will loan you the money and allow you to repay it over time at say 5% interest and don't let them down). Keep on sending that letter in with your hardship letter. Tell them it is all you have and give them a date that it will be paid by. Send the same letters in each week, tell them the same thing each time they call you. Make sure you send it certified mail, I made the mistake of faxing it and they kept losing it. The process will drive you crazy but hang in there. Mine kept passing me up the line when their pressure didn't work, I finally got to someone who came back with 30% offer, I countered back at 20% and they finally accepted it. Remember the second gets nothing in a foreclosure and you can nicely remind them of this as I did and I said I was trying to work out all my debts so that everyone got something and the key seems to be you have to be 90 days late for them to do this. Though I am still struggling through and going through foreclosure on investment properties, this was my residence and I didn't want to lose it. Once you get that done then I would try and negotiate with the first lender. Wells Fargo just offered me a modification on my rental home after trying since April and this after they asked me for the package yet again because it was out of date due to them not getting their act together. "I said no way, i am not doing it again and I will put in a short sale package" 4 days later I get a call saying they had given me a modification and if I paid today I would get a head start, I declined to pay until I saw the package which arrived yesterday.
Don't give up, hope this helps give you hope.

[phil413]

Current123,

It was a very easy process for my mother and they did reduce her interest rate to 2% for five years and it was under the HAMP program.

[tc4gold]

Listen, my second with National city was essentially what they classed as a HELOC and I was able to negotiate a settlement of 20% of the loan balance (I started with 10%)e (I started with 10%). Please try this if you have access to the cash to settle. Yes, they are going to say they don't want you to go past the 90 days and then tell them that if they accept in writing your offer of xxxx as settled in full and final payment of debt then you will make the first payment. They will ask you to make one payment by phone and you ask them to put it in writing that if you do that the amount will be deducted from your total offer of settlement. I did this and it was completed no problem, after I made that one payment to stop it escalating I had them send me a letter stating that the amount of the setlement was x - my payment for a total of xx.

Keep on trying, it may not fall under the Obama plan cookie cutter but they are fools not to take it but they will push you as far as they can just to see if you will bend and pay, that is their job to collect the money. Sometimes it helps if the person loaning you the money for the settlement gets on the phone wiht them as mine did and tells them that is all they have to help you with and they cannot and will not go any higher. Try it and good luck.

[wayunderwater]

Thanks tc, phil and current. I really appreciate the encouragement. After 10-months of trying and faxing and calling I am losing hope. At the same time I am coming to terms with the worst case and it no longer seems so bad. I will not give up yet. I will formally re-submit my offer to settle the second and try to get Wells (1st) to put into writing the reason that I did not receive the HAMP modification.

I received the written request for from Wells for reduced payments over a three month period and then a balloon on the fourth month to make up the late payments. It does not make any change to my loan and does nothing to make it more affordable. (If I hit the lottery before the 4th month I guess it could work.)

Thanks again for the encouragement.

[Mandy]

Wayunderwater,

I would call and ask NACA about the other properities. I have another house and I was told that as lons as my family lived there, NACA can work with me. I have sent all of my paperwork to them and I should be getting a call from them on Friday. I will also attend Save the Dream Tour in Los Angeles.

Good luck and DO NOT GIVE UP!!!!!!!!!! You never know, one day the right people working at WF might work with you, but please do not give up!