Democracy NOT! Democra-lobby YES !

[Irish Gal]

Posted by Garry (Aug 09):

"I was talking with my dad the other day about HAMP and the problems I've had with the banks, and he tells me this: They let the fox into the chicken coop to count the chickens. That about sums it up. I try to understand why the Gov has let the banks implement the HAMP program, because after the banks denied everyone for the Hope For Homeowners program and caused its failure, you would think that they would know better. I've came up with all kinds of reasoning behind it, but I hope the answer is the program is just so big there was no other way to do it. I watch the news on health care and see republicans lying through their teeth, scaring the living crap out of old people. Talking about youth in Asia, death pannels, and anything else they think people are stupid enough to believe to stop a health care plan that is intended to help all of us. I wonder why these people that are elected by us are not held accountable for the lies they are telling us. I'm a Dem living in a Republican town, and I can tell you the old people here really are scared. I am to the point where I don't trust anyone anymore. I know the dems are the majority and they can put through any plan they want to, it doesn't matter what we or anyone else thinks about it, but I see them compromising the bill anyway and feeding us a bunch of B.S. Do they really think that we can not see we are being sold out? Sorry for the rant, stress is high."

********************

I first want to say I started this thread so if others need to vent or get perspective or kick around ideas as to why or how our gov't or politicians are failing us horribly in this banking and econ crisis, there's a place here to do it. But, we must be mature, supportive of others here and not divide ourselves from others who do not agree w/ our opinions. This isn't an avenue to attack others. We must stay focused on this site i.e. that we have much more in common as distressed homeowners or Americans vs. anything else. I'm ssssooooo tired of Americans being pitted against each other to direct our attention away from what the bums (both parties!) are doing!!!!! So, just wanted to clarify what MY intent is/was in starting this thread: to be something positive, nothing else. So, for those who need a place to vent, let it rip!

Garry, I feel your frustration. You are not alone. I was a life-long Dem. No longer. I guess, Independent now. I really had hopes for this admin., but no longer. Dems are blowing it. From the Blue Dog Dems (Pubs posing as Dems) to this extremely unproductive (for the country) admin stance of "bipartisanship," they've blown it. I don't want a "nice guy" prez that preaches non-stop getting along (above all else) with those who don't represent the masses wishes and needs. I don't want an admin that bends over for the bankers (over and over ), or the health insurance/pharma magnates. No change here. Worse. IMO, it's really not a Dem or Pub issue. They ALL play the political game the same. It's about their careers and power. Not about representing the people, their constituents, etc. The system is so corrupt, it's about which lobbyists pay who the most. That's it. And the American public has no one lobbying for their interests. No one. IMO, they get away w/ their corruption because they (successfully) rely on the masses being uninformed, unengaged, gullible, as well as, too broke, tired, jobless, ******** to fight back. There you go. We have no true representation in this country. It's all a sham . And, IMO, both parties benefit by keeping Americans divided and distracted with the "us vs. them" mentality, so they can keep up their corrupt, do nothing careers, keep their primo health plans, pensions, constant "out of session" schedules, limo lifestyles, on the taxpayer's backs. The whole system needs revamping. Not any one party. They all play the same dirty games. They pretend they are opposing each other on t.v., collect their commentator "fees", then go to dinner together at some fancy eatery. Just another day in the life of an American politician! So, hang in there, Garry. All I can say is, keep informing yourself. An informed citizen is a threat to the corruption! End of rant /

[Moe Bedard]

Is there hope?

Our world has always operated on a "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine life." Since the dawn of time.

How can we EVER get away from that? Especially with the fact that money is in control of everyone and everything. Oh, who controls the money? Nuff said....

[AzGryffindor]

Until true election reform is enacted we're going to see history repeat itself over and over.

I've always thought that a better system for elections would be to allot each viable candidate the same amount of funds in which to run their campaign. No more campaign contributions. Whatever the candidate can accomplish within their budget would also show initiative on how they handle a budget.

Lobbyists should be banned altogether. Many companies have in place workplace policies that make it against company rules for you to accept so much as a paperclip. This same philosophy needs to be implemented within our governmental systems. No more free trips to Bermuda. No more free dinners. No more free rides on the corporate jet.

I'm personally happy with our new president. He's accomplished more in his first few months in office than many presidents have in their entire terms. He's at least trying.

Please keep in mind that the original bank bailouts were not started by this administration but by the previous admin.

My only complaint is that there needs to be far greater oversight when it comes to the HAMP and HARP programs. Currently, there are no penalties if a bank disregards the guidelines/rules. Monetary penalties need to be put in place along with criminal penalties for extreme cases.

[so-cal-gal]

I personally want to keep the government as FAR, FAR away from my doctor's office as POSSIBLE.

There may not be euthanasia PLANNED but trying to cover MORE people using LESS money WILL NOT WORK unless there is TORT reform.

The Democrats have brainwashed you.

I had enough problems with just having a standard HMO get between me and the ACL knee surgery that was truly needed by me at age 48. I was told that I was not doing any 'cutting' type activities. Hmmm. My knee would slide out of place as I simply WALKED along. I tried to sit down in an office chair with wheels and the knee slipped just as I was getting close to having my butt on the chair. I ended up grabbing for the chair as I ended up nearly landing on my butt on the floor because the knee moved enough to have me almost completely miss getting any part of the chair seat under me.

I did not need the surgery? And that slipping in the joint was damaging the knee. If left that way I would have needed a total knee replacement instead.

Oh and when the surgery was done on my own dime by a sports-injury clinic, I finally also got treated for the shallow tibial plateau fracture that had been diagnosed by the otho when the injury occurred in Canada. The HMO otho's claimed it was not there. 9 months of misery was quickly ended with that ACL replacement followed by proper treatment for the un-healed fracture.

Now that type of managed care problem will only get worse with the FEDS being in on the mess.

Keep the feds the hell out of health insurance and health care. Get them to fix tort reform problems. THAT will bring health care costs down much better than any of these false promises the DEMOCRATS are feeding you.

I happen to vote EITHER party. I do not enjoy either too-liberal or too-right-wing stances in politics.

Both parties lie.

[Irish Gal]

Originally Posted by AzGryffindor

Until true election reform is enacted we're going to see history repeat itself over and over.

I've always thought that a better system for elections would be to allot each viable candidate the same amount of funds in which to run their campaign. No more campaign contributions. Whatever the candidate can accomplish within their budget would also show initiative on how they handle a budget.

Lobbyists should be banned altogether. Many companies have in place workplace policies that make it against company rules for you to accept so much as a paperclip. This same philosophy needs to be implemented within our governmental systems. No more free trips to Bermuda. No more free dinners. No more free rides on the corporate jet.

Amen AzGry!


The following article expresses it all, for me. I voted for Mr. Obama and like him as a person, very much. But, what he ran on and what he is doing are two different things. If I knew that he would elect such a horrible Treasury team, go so easy on Wall St. and give away health insur reform, I wouldn't have voted for him. I know it's not just him, but the other Dem obstructionists, too. The party has the majority and still can't get done what the majority voted them in for. During these catastrophic times, a tough leader is needed. Unfortunately, nice guys finish last. I wish everyone could get along, play nice and that being "nice" over all else actually changed the world (for the good). Unfortunately, the world doesn't seem to work that way. At this point, I think he'd be a better Ambassador, serving a nice guy role . During this crisis, I want a serious hammer, looking out for the real econ (not just Wall St.), and all Americans, not just corp America. Oh well, there's always the next election.

WHAT NOW ?

By Jane Smiley HUFF POST
Pulitzer Prize-Winning Novelist and Essayist August 16, 2009

It's pretty evident that Obama is caught between rock and a hard place, but the trap is one he made for himself, and those of us on the left who hoped that he would not make this trap now have to ask ourselves some very difficult questions. The first of these is this -- if we step up to the plate and support him now with both our money and our feet, what will we get in return? If the last six months are any indication, the answer is, "Nothing." I have to admit that I've watched the administration with increasing dismay.

Although I sent Obama as much in the way of campaign contributions as I was allowed to by law, and then was dunned again after the inauguration for more (in this I am like most of my liberal friends), Obama seemed neither to share our analysis of what was wrong with the Bush administration nor to share our views on who, exactly, was the right sort of official to correct Bush's crimes and misdemeanors. While his choices on the environment have been pretty good, he has catered to Wall Street at every turn, and Wall Street has responded by going back to business as usual as quickly as possible, clearly unintimidated by their friends Summers and Geithner. Our tax dollars have disappeared into the maw of fat bankers' salaries and rising equity while we, the taxpayers are still stuck with high principal, tight loans, high fees, and skittish lenders. Yup, Naomi Klein was right -- a crisis is just another way for the financial class to soak the poor.

Health care has been the real test, and if his administration caves to Republican intimidation and lies and foregoes the public option in the health care bill, Obama is failing that test. If there is no public option and no way of lowering the price of drugs -- if Obama is determined to make back room deals with the same old corporate shills--then what have I gotten for my campaign contribution? It's not nothing, it's worse than nothing, because if the man who promised hope does the same old thing, then that is the end of hope.

It was always pretty clear to me that the right wing was not ever in a million years going to play the bipartisan game, and I couldn't figure out why Obama thought they might. At first I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt -- that he knew he had to appear to extend the hand across the aisle so that he could then do the right thing with a clear conscience (and good PR). But then it became evident that he really does care more about the Republicans across the aisle than the left side of his own party, and this is really peculiar, because the more that he has attempted to woo those Republicans, the more hysterical they've become. They think he's weak, and they think they're winning. If he foregoes the public option, they have won. Simple as that, and we on the left can and must come to the conclusion that he used us and our money, but never intended to listen to us or give us a G-D thing. Believe me, even if and when he gives up the public option, no Republican is going to extend the hand of fellowship to Obama, no matter what. As far as I can tell, Obama does not understand how Republicans work.

Here is how they work -- if you are stronger than they are, they arm themselves and scream that they are being victimized, and if they are stronger than you, they arm themselves and scream about what a pussy you are. In other words, they work like spouse abusers work. To try and work with them is crazy, and Obama's only hope for making something of his promises and his presidency would have been to work around them. But he didn't.

There is a real danger now that some right wing nut is going to commit an enormous and terrifying crime. Obama has never understood that what he represents is, in and of itself, repellent to some Americans. There are people out there who believe he's the Anti-Christ and if there's one thing Saddam Hussein learned, it's that you can't prove a negative. But Obama courted the Republicans from the beginning and gave us the cold shoulder. Now Move On is asking me for money again, and I expect Joe Biden will appear in my mailbox any day now.

If I pony up, what will I get? More Geithner. More Summers. No public option. Obama needs to wake up before he has no friends at all. Max Baucus is not his friend. Chuck Grassley is not his friend. If Obama wants me for a friend, he's going to have to give me something for my little contribution and my vote, and my support. He's going to have to come clean about the abuses of power committed by the Bush administration and repudiate them. He's going to have to repudiate the drug companies and give them back their money. He's going to have to pressure the banks to revamp their lending policies and their fees, and he's going to have to regulate them. And he's going to have to stand up to the Senate Finance Committee and give us the sort of health insurance that the Senate Finance Committee enjoys. The left could do again for Obama what they did last year -- back him up. But he's jilted us since then, so what hope is there?

[AzGryffindor]

In regards to health care reform: I grew up with one health insurance plan. I was never denied services. I had any specialist I needed provided to me whenever I needed one. Anything from the pharmacy was paid for 100%. When I was 9 and broke my arm I didn't wait hours in a waiting room to be seen by a doctor. When I was a teenager and began to suffer from a genetic stomach disorder I was never denied service due to a "pre-existing condition".

Want to know who my health insurer was?
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The US Military. My father was a 20+ year retiree and my mother, brothers and myself all grew up with military insurance. My father had it until he passed away a few years ago. My mother still has the same insurance.

So, for those that think that the government can't get anything right when it comes to medical insurance, I beg to differ.

[Corrina]

Originally Posted by AzGryffindor

Until true election reform is enacted we're going to see history repeat itself over and over.

I've always thought that a better system for elections would be to allot each viable candidate the same amount of funds in which to run their campaign. No more campaign contributions. Whatever the candidate can accomplish within their budget would also show initiative on how they handle a budget.

I couldn't agree more and I bet you'd get more qualified people trying knowing that they wouldn't be "out gunned". However, what is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I also agree that the banks need to be audited with how they are handling these mods. I would rather see the banks get some sort of tax incentive (monitored) for doing modifications instead of writing off all these foreclosures.

Also, as part of receiving funds from the govt. I personally feel that the banks (along with the automakers) should have been made to cancel all outsourcing and bring the jobs back home.... TO AMERICANS!

As far as Obama, I don't agree with some of the decisions that he has done and not done. However, considering the mess that was created in the past eight years... he's not going to fix it within 1 year.

[so-cal-gal]

Originally Posted by AzGryffindor

In regards to health care reform: I grew up with one health insurance plan. I was never denied services. I had any specialist I needed provided to me whenever I needed one. Anything from the pharmacy was paid for 100%. When I was 9 and broke my arm I didn't wait hours in a waiting room to be seen by a doctor. When I was a teenager and began to suffer from a genetic stomach disorder I was never denied service due to a "pre-existing condition".

Want to know who my health insurer was?
.
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The US Military. My father was a 20+ year retiree and my mother, brothers and myself all grew up with military insurance. My father had it until he passed away a few years ago. My mother still has the same insurance.

So, for those that think that the government can't get anything right when it comes to medical insurance, I beg to differ.

If you think for one second that the plan being put forth will resemble CHAMPUS let alone the version of military medical care you grew up with, you will be sadly disappointed.

Too bad we can not all have coverage like you enjoyed or, better yet, the same benefits that congress and the president enjoys.

Instead you are headed for MANAGED CARE that has more red tape than the current breauacracy of the Health Maintenance Organizations that exist now.

[so-cal-gal]

Originally Posted by Corrina

... I would rather see the banks get some sort of tax incentive (monitored) for doing modifications instead of writing off all these foreclosures.

Another of the BIG lies that we have been told is that the banks lose money on a foreclosure.

If the loan was Freddie or Fannie-backed, the government (read that 'the taxpayers') pays the costs.
If the loan has PMI insurance, the insurance pays the costs.
If the loan was one of those that was traded as 'securatized' paper, the deals typically have the cost of any foreclosures covered.

Now that just about only leaves truly 'little-guy' investors as the ones who get hurt by foreclosure costs. They are the only ones who did not know how the 'big-boys' game was played.

Nope, the BANKS have their collective backsides covered on the costs of foreclosures.

[Irish Gal]

Originally Posted by AzGryffindor

In regards to health care reform: I grew up with one health insurance plan. I was never denied services. I had any specialist I needed provided to me whenever I needed one. Anything from the pharmacy was paid for 100%. When I was 9 and broke my arm I didn't wait hours in a waiting room to be seen by a doctor. When I was a teenager and began to suffer from a genetic stomach disorder I was never denied service due to a "pre-existing condition".

Want to know who my health insurer was?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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The US Military. My father was a 20+ year retiree and my mother, brothers and myself all grew up with military insurance. My father had it until he passed away a few years ago. My mother still has the same insurance.

So, for those that think that the government can't get anything right when it comes to medical insurance, I beg to differ.

I agree! The "gov't can't get anything done right" crowds sure love to flock to gov't jobs, get elected, take from the til, then tear down the gov't that provides their limo lifestyles. It's all propoganda. Reagan and his cronies started all those "gov't isn't the answer, it's the problem" slogans 30 yrs ago. His fans are still not over the fact that he's gone. Then, it took 30 years thereafter for the Pubs to literally rape the gov't to the point that it can't walk today. Then, they blame the victim: the big, bad "gov't"! We are the gov't. The gov is as efficient or not as we have the will to make it. Americans don't have the will to make their gov't work for them. They still allow the gov't demonizers to terrorize them with all sorts of ignorant ideas about the big, bad gov't. That's how the markets became so rogue and we now are paying dearly for our "get the gov't out now" schtick. Unregulated, free market - good. Gov't - bad. Yea, right. I'm not saying gov't is the ANSWER to everything. It's not. And, shouldn't be. But, the gov't can serve it's own citizens well, if we have the will to create good gov't and allow it flourish. But, we don't. Corp America has done a good job of spreading anti-gov't propaganda so average folks vote against their own self-interests ALL THE TIME. We're seeing it now w/ healthcare. It's ridiculous, really. Other countries (with intelligent policies) look at us voting down our own self-interests all the time and scratch their heads. Go figure.

[Irish Gal]

[QUOTE=so-cal-gal;113431]If you think for one second that the plan being put forth will resemble CHAMPUS let alone the version of military medical care you grew up with, you will be sadly disappointed.

Too bad we can not all have coverage like you enjoyed or, better yet, the same benefits that congress and the president enjoys.

Instead you are headed for MANAGED CARE that has more red tape than the current breauacracy of the Health Maintenance Organizations that exist now.[/QUOTE]

That’s because Obama couldn’t even approach the single payer system he is really for, as Americans for the most part, are happy to vote against their own self-interests before they even know what they’re voting for or against. They just believe any propaganda thrown at them. The socialists are coming … the socialists are coming … Any truly intelligent, cost effective or good policy for average Americans that has the potential to affect corp. America’s bottom line gets killed as “socialism” before it even takes off. All you have to say to scare the average, uninformed American is “socialism” and they wet their pants with fear. The proposed plan is no change, thanks to the lobbyists having bought everyone off and Americans enjoying the freedom to vote against their own interests, once again. It’s a badly mangled proposed plan that will keep the health insurance magnates very wealthy and continue to provide little benefit to uninsured Americans. If Americans can’t rally behind good healthcare for all, what does this country stand for, anymore? Any policy that takes the profit motive out of human health is a good thing, to me. For god’s sake, there’s a black market for human organs in this country and around the world. You can’t even rest in peace when you’re dead! The profiteers are still trying to make a buck off you when you’re cold and six feet under (I loved that show!). That’s how our current healthcare system is run, too. Oh well. If Americans want the freedom to keep paying high health insurance premiums and get little or nothing in return, let em. It’s a “free” country, after all. Or, is it?

[Walking Away]

Here are a few starting point solutions--basically some ideas mixed with a rant. First off-recognize the main enemies--that would be the politicians and the bankers--there's others but these are the 2 that need to be crushed first. Until these 2 groups of crooks are squashed; nothing will get better for Main Street America. 2 steps here:

1) Vote out every incumbent. Don't worry about the money they might bring to your community. In the long run it's better to vote out every incumbent until the message is loud and clear that the politicians need to begin representing the people again and not the lobbyists--only the loss of power will wake these people up

2) Eliminate all credit card debt, bank loan debt and never pay a dime's worth of interest to a bank again(except for your mortgage if the rate is a fair rate). Fight as hard as possible for a modified mortgage rate--don't give up fighting--but rip off interest rates and high bank fees can no longer be paid. If buried in debt; do bankruptcy and learn to pay cash and live within means. It's healthier than stressing about debt and a credit score. Don't pay $500/month towards credit cards if principle is only lowered $250. Wake up and stop being robbed by banks. Get pissed off in a non-violent constructive manner. If a sub prime mortgage rate doesn't get modified; stop paying mortgage and live for free for as long as possible and then walk away. If rip off interest rates will not be lowered to 5% or less; stop paying and get a clean start with bankruptcy

Collectively these ideas are happening as shown by the record high walk aways and record high credit card default rates. That's step 1 and the message is being sent loud and clear to the bankers--help out Main Street or get stiffed by more and more of us on Main Street. Step 2 is the 2010 elections--ignore the dem-republican bullsh** con game of picking a side. Simply be a robot at the booth and ignore all the promises from the incumbent and vote him or her out--forget race, gender and political party--fire all incumbents--their successors will know that either they will work for the people and not the lobbyists or they too will get fired. That's the only way to make lobbyists powerless

[jinksy]

[quote=Irish Gal;113458]

Originally Posted by so-cal-gal

If you think for one second that the plan being put forth will resemble CHAMPUS let alone the version of military medical care you grew up with, you will be sadly disappointed.

Too bad we can not all have coverage like you enjoyed or, better yet, the same benefits that congress and the president enjoys.

Instead you are headed for MANAGED CARE that has more red tape than the current breauacracy of the Health Maintenance Organizations that exist now.[/QUOTE]

That’s because Obama couldn’t even approach the single payer system he is really for, as Americans for the most part, are happy to vote against their own self-interests before they even know what they’re voting for or against. I think that is insulting to most people. Just because they don't agree with the proposed healthcare reform does not mean they are uninformed. They just believe any propaganda thrown at them. What propaganda are you talking about? The socialists are coming … the socialists are coming … I agree with you there. The socialists are here. And we must defeat them.Any truly intelligent, cost effective or good policy for average Americans that has the potential to affect corp. America’s bottom line gets killed as “socialism” before it even takes off. All you have to say to scare the average, uninformed American is “socialism” and they wet their pants with fear. The proposed plan is no change, thanks to the lobbyists having bought everyone off and Americans enjoying the freedom to vote against their own interests, once again. Again, that is offensive. Most Americans are not uniformed. They vote for their best interests. I do agree that there should be no lobbyists. It’s a badly mangled proposed plan that will keep the health insurance magnates very wealthy and continue to provide little benefit to uninsured Americans. If Americans can’t rally behind good healthcare for all, what does this country stand for, anymore? Any policy that takes the profit motive out of human health is a good thing, to me. That is a socialist idea. You don't believe in free enterprise and capitalism? You are welcome to share your money with the guy that doesn't feel the need to work. For god’s sake, there’s a black market for human organs in this country and around the world. There is a black market for just about everything. Organs are no different. If I was in fantastic health and had an organ that I could do without and could sell it you better believe I would do it. You can’t even rest in peace when you’re dead! The profiteers are still trying to make a buck off you when you’re cold and six feet under (I loved that show!). That’s how our current healthcare system is run, too. Oh well. If Americans want the freedom to keep paying high health insurance premiums and get little or nothing in return, I don't understand what you are saying. Little or nothing in return? I just got a total knee replacement. I would call that a good return for my money. let em. It’s a “free” country, after all. Or, is it?

I do believe that heathcare does need to be reformed, but Obamas plan is not the way to go. For one thing it would not go according to their plan. Medicare is a good example of why government should not be involved. Basically it is a good program, but it has been raided. Therefore, items have been cut/discontinued due to not enough money. If this heathcare plan goes through other government programs will suffer even more.
The government cannot control it's own spending.

[Corrina]

The only way to get the government to understand about medical care is to take away their "free" medical care...

[so-cal-gal]

Originally Posted by Corrina

The only way to get the government to understand about medical care is to take away their "free" medical care...

AND make them truly dependent on income from the job, no 'speaking fees' and access to add-on funds, no means to go outside the 'system' go get better care.

Give them the choice of signing up for medicare or joining an HMO but still make them pay just as we all do.

Let THEM try to get the necessary appointments (and already, in some cases, the needed treatment) without 'pulling strings'.

Managed care in California has already been credited with the DEATH of a teenager. She needed a procedure that the HMO did not authorize. The parents could not afford it. They appealed and got approval but the delay was sufficient to cost the teen her LIFE.

That is rationed care without BO in the mix. You think having him in the process will be BETTER? It will make any appeal process even MORE time-consuming.

What is proposed for us is NOTHING like the care given to the military dependants or even congress and the pres.

BEFORE they change things for the rest of us, MAKE THEM USE THE EXACT SYSTEM THEY ARE PROPOSING. Put the model into effect for THEM, scale it and fund it so it has the same ratio of access to treatment and the same staffing that will be afforded to everyone. Make the staffing of this 'model system' also represent that of the average community, not that of a 'showcase'. In fact, set it up so that the staff do NOT know that every patient is a politician. Require that the politicians use a different name to not draw any special attention to WHO they are. They would have to leave the limo behind and drive themselves, walk or take public transit so there is no notoriety as they arrive and leave this facility.

Require that they only go through this model system to access ANY healthcare.

How soon would they pay more attention to the contents of the bills on their desks, reading them BEFORE they debate or VOTE?

[Corrina]

AAAAAmen!!!!!!

[Irish Gal]

THE SWISS MENACE

By PAUL KRUGMAN August 16, 2009 NEW YORK TIMES

It was the blooper heard round the world. In an editorial denouncing Democratic health reform plans, Investor’s Business Daily tried to frighten its readers by declaring that in Britain, where the government runs health care, the handicapped physicist Stephen Hawking “wouldn’t have a chance,” because the National Health Service would consider his life “essentially worthless.”

Professor Hawking, who was born in Britain, has lived there all his life, and has been well cared for by the National Health Service, was not amused.
Besides being vile and stupid, however, the editorial was beside the point. Investor’s Business Daily would like you to believe that Obamacare would turn America into Britain — or, rather, a dystopian fantasy version of Britain. The screamers on talk radio and Fox News would have you believe that the plan is to turn America into the Soviet Union. But the truth is that the plans on the table would, roughly speaking, turn America into Switzerland — which may be occupied by lederhosen-wearing holey-cheese eaters, but wasn’t a socialist hellhole the last time I looked.

Let’s talk about health care around the advanced world.

Every wealthy country other than the United States guarantees essential care to all its citizens. There are, however, wide variations in the specifics, with three main approaches taken.

In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false. Like every system, the National Health Service has problems, but over all it appears to provide quite good care while spending only about 40 percent as much per person as we do. By the way, our own Veterans Health Administration, which is run somewhat like the British health service, also manages to combine quality care with low costs.

The second route to universal coverage leaves the actual delivery of health care in private hands, but the government pays most of the bills. That’s how Canada and, in a more complex fashion, France do it. It’s also a system familiar to most Americans, since even those of us not yet on Medicare have parents and relatives who are.

Again, you hear a lot of horror stories about such systems, most of them false. French health care is excellent. Canadians with chronic conditions are more satisfied with their system than their U.S. counterparts. And Medicare is highly popular, as evidenced by the tendency of town-hall protesters to demand that the government keep its hands off the program.

Finally, the third route to universal coverage relies on private insurance companies, using a combination of regulation and subsidies to ensure that everyone is covered. Switzerland offers the clearest example: everyone is required to buy insurance, insurers can’t discriminate based on medical history or pre-existing conditions, and lower-income citizens get government help in paying for their policies.

In this country, the Massachusetts health reform more or less follows the Swiss model; costs are running higher than expected, but the reform has greatly reduced the number of uninsured. And the most common form of health insurance in America, employment-based coverage, actually has some “Swiss” aspects: to avoid making benefits taxable, employers have to follow rules that effectively rule out discrimination based on medical history and subsidize care for lower-wage workers.

So where does Obamacare fit into all this? Basically, it’s a plan to Swissify America, using regulation and subsidies to ensure universal coverage.
If we were starting from scratch we probably wouldn’t have chosen this route. True “socialized medicine” would undoubtedly cost less, and a straightforward extension of Medicare-type coverage to all Americans would probably be cheaper than a Swiss-style system. That’s why I and others believe that a true public option competing with private insurers is extremely important: otherwise, rising costs could all too easily undermine the whole effort.

But a Swiss-style system of universal coverage would be a vast improvement on what we have now. And we already know that such systems work.
So we can do this. At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies.

[SwillerAlesbane]

For those of you who don't want socialized healthcare.....stand up and shout from the roof-tops you want Medi-Care and Medic-Aid abolished.

They are both socialized healthcare. Without them, no one but the extremely rich would be able to retire.

IMO, those against social healthcare are being led by scare tactic republicans. If it wasn't for social reforms, all you debt slaves wouldn't have hardly any rights at all. We (the american people) had to FIGHT just to get decent lunch hours and breaks.

Some social programs are NECESSARY, simply due to the fact that it is the RIGHT thing to do...help provide for those whom cannot provide for themselves. Healthcare is one of them. The people who seem to think the only ones who deserve healthcare are the ones actively contributing to the workforce, are amazing. Our elderly, the disabled (mentally & physically), the very young.....all need healthcare, and you would DENY them (no insurance company would take any of those people anyhow as they would LOSE money...and can't take their god away from the insurance companies).

Wake up and show some damn compassion. I'm ready to defend this country from threats from outside, as well as inside. I'm ready for the revolution and I do so rejoice that the 2nd Amendment is still in place.

[booggs28]

thomas.loc.gov HR3200 - Here's the link to said healthcare reform bill - I have written my reps, senators and state officials to read it, and I myself am re-reading it, albeit it is not very captivating, some of it I can't understand because it's not in layman's terms, however, one can glean a sense of what is being proposed. Second, www.cbo.gov has the cost involved in said healthcare reform.

It has often been said that Ignorace breed fear and misrepresentation, fear breeds hate, so on and so forth. Knowledge however, can drive those fears out. The beauty of our time now is that information can be found via the internet or perhaps your local library.

Instead of listening to what the "media" is telling you each day, or the White House, or the President or the vast amount of News Papers or even your neighbor, take a bit of time to education yourself on what is happening in our Nation. I am no way implying that anyone here is "ignorant" I am just illuminating the masses in as much as, there is a crisis everyday is there not? We are bombarded daily by the mortgage crisis, the healthcare crisis, the unemployment crisis, ect.

It is inconceiveable that one could possibly digest all of it at one time. Here's a thought, perhaps everyone here could "collectively" decide to attack one crisis at a time, commit to learning as much about it as you can, present it to the forum. Have we not be pitted against one another for way to long? Maybe it's an idealistic view on my part, be it republican or democrate or independent would it not serve us to step back for a moment and realize, we are all affected some way or another by the times at hand regardless of parties?

We want our Government to join together for the good of our Nation, yet we cannot join together ourselves for this same purpose. There will always be opposing views, disagreements, yet there can be a balance, a common ground that can be built upon where one can agree to disagree and move forward.

I apologize in advance if I have offended any one with this as I mean no disrespect to any of you fine folks that are here and reading this.

My best to each and everyone here and I hope that the day brings great blessings and peace.

[jinksy]

I've read parts of different versions. It changes like the wind. Even attorneys are having a hard time understanding it. You can ask the politicians to explain something and even they don't know. I'll just wait until the final version becomes law or not. But, thank you for the post. And I agree that we need to educate ourselves.

[Moe Bedard]

I am sorry I didn't put more thought in my first post Irish. I didn't mean any disrespect and this thread definitely deserves more attention.(I think a a forum on each of these major issues is warranted where we can share info, links, lies etc.)

There is no trust.

You are 100% correct and it looks like it doesn't matter if there is a donkey or elephant that carries these life long well to dos into public office. We need to wipe out almost every single politician based on these ties.

Have you all seen Glen Beck lately?

Don't hang on to every word he says because he is somewhat controlled and censored by the Board at Fox, but his approach of follow the money and follow the relationships is what we all need to do. This is why I want to open LoanSafe to all Main Street ala MainStreetForum.org to start connecting the dots on these politicians.

I think most of us may disagree on health care, abortion, the war etc. But if we as a community focus on Main Street's core issues, we will win. I think all this 'crisis" BS is just used as scare and divide propaganda to fool the people. Pit each other against one another.

If Main Street focuses on the "core issues" we will over come. Homes and Loans, Jobs, Small Business, Food, Education and Health Care. we will keep things KISS. These are what we all need and can all agree that need fixing.

Here is what I am proposing and I agree with most what everyone says here about lobbyist, uniting etc.

1. New party (there always has to be one to root out imposter's) in the 2010 elections of Main Street and not Yale, city mayors or life long a$$ ki$$ers. We follow the money, scandal etc and make sure they don't get voted in 2010 for failing to act for the people on Main Street or just the same puppet selling the same snake oil. I have one year to build that campaign.

2. No lobbyist

3. Wall Street criminals who sold these mortgages are held accountable

4. Bankruptcy reform to include mortgages

5. Boycott corporate media

6. More Independent Media on radio and TV. Not just satellite and cable.

7. Get the government out of education and move it to the local and state level. Yes, they can fund it, but we have to stop letting them start with our children.

Those 7 things would "really" fundamentally change the US.

Do you know the one thing that will kill all our hopes of this happening? Think about the largest section of the Middle Class who is the most conservative and mainly rely on the government to survive? They also do not really use the internet and are not open to getting educated about the truth. The get their info from corporate media like Lou Dobbs or Bill OReiley.

The elderly.