Doing the "Buy and Bail" in Northern CA

[driftwood]

Thanks for the information and advice vantuckian. I was aware of the 6 months reserves and I will likely use our 401K and IRA balances for that. They are significant assets and my reasoning for doing so is to present a stronger financial picture when including these balances. Plus I want to put most of my cash as a down, my hope there is to see if I can leverage a higher debt-to-income ratio if I put down 25% on the new house. I have provided my information to the brokers and waiting to see what they come back with. On the chance that it still might not be enough I may ask a relative to go in on the new purchase with me, then again I haven't spoken to him about this yet so he might not go along. I would suspect this would make it "easier" to explain my intent with my existing home.

[driftwood]

Very much appreciate the suggestion TomEason!. And since my intent is to "sell" the current home, albeit a distressed sale, i.e. FC, pending sale would be accurate.

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I wondered about doing this because would it not raise questions for the new lender? I mean it would be clear form the application that the current home is significantly underwater so wouldn't the underwriter read that as SS or worse?

Also are you saying that if the current home is shown as PS then the mortgages associated with that property are somehow reduced from the debt-to-income ratios?

Thanks!

[TomEason]

Very much appreciate the suggestion TomEason!. And since my intent is to "sell" the current home, albeit a distressed sale, i.e. FC, pending sale would be accurate.

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I wondered about doing this because would it not raise questions for the new lender? I mean it would be clear form the application that the current home is significantly underwater so wouldn't the underwriter read that as SS or worse?

Also are you saying that if the current home is shown as PS then the mortgages associated with that property are somehow reduced from the debt-to-income ratios?

Thanks!

Driftwood

Thanks for your question.

Underwriters aren't at all savvy about market prices. Furthermore they're usually so swamped and ove- burdend with files, they don't examine market prices at all.

About your DTI, your loan broker will provide further guidance. He/she may suggest you write a LOE to the lender about your intentions for the property.

[driftwood]

A minor thing really but before I started down this buy and bail strategy (and before I knew better) I had opened negotiations with my second, Green Tree to try and settle the remaining balance. I had countered their latest offer and was waiting to hear back, while waiting to hear back I found this site and realized my approach was completely wrong. So I waited just to see what they would come back with, they called yesterday and told me the investor was holding at his original offer of about 90% of the balance. Remember I have never been late and they had my financials, so yeah didnt expect otherwise to be honest but I had hope! I had started at about 20% and progressively gone up to my last offer of about 62%... I know I know... foolish. When she called back I just told them not to worry about it I am retracting my settlement offer. They didn't ask any questions, and were probably relieved to close my request. Honestly I so wanted to tell her that she should have counseled her investor better since this is a no-recourse 2nd on a property that is significantly underwater for the 1st.... but I thought better of showing my "cards" at this point and just ended the call.

[vantuckian]

@driftwood about the current home, if your "to-be" DTI can support the new mortgage, it shouldn't matter at all to the underwriter. If you were to rent it out and try to use that rental income to boost your DTI, then the underwriters will want all the details on that, but since you're not doing that, it shouldn't matter. I'm sure at some point, a loan officer may ask what your plans for that home are, but as detailed above, pending sale is a perfectly good answer.

[driftwood]

OK so just heard back from the broker who suggested buying the new house as an investment property and he could get me approved. He explained that because my current primary residence is significantly at a negative equity position and because my DTI would be too stretched he likely could not get it approved as a primary residence. Of course this would require a larger down but I could swing that I think, but I am concerned about going in as an investment property then making it my primary residence? Anyone see issues with that? Normally I would expect that to be OK since circumstances change, but this might be different?

[TomEason]

driftwood

Thanks for your post.

I recommend you speak with a second (or more) loan broker. This one sounds like he may not be that experienced.

I don't believe listing the property as an investment is the best move here. For one thing, your new loan would be a recourse loan.

[foothills_bailer]

I'm getting worried because the 10-2-12 Trustee Sale date is right around the corner. I was hoping someone could give me some idea of how long it takes between this trustee sale and when we must be physically out of the house. Please see this post from yesterday with the details. Does anyone know how I can find this info out or point me in the right direction??

Thanks for any help!


#120 foothills_bailer

• View Profile
• View Forum Posts

Member

---

Join Date

Jan 2012

Posts

9

I have not posted here for a couple of months. We are now almost at the end of our Buy And Bail, and are wondering when we actually need to vacate the house?? The auction date (trustee sale?) that is posted in the newspaper (and of course we also received 10 separate copies in the mail!!) will be on October 2nd. However, the minimum amount is for $290K and the value is probably around $160 at this point- so we are guessing it won't be sold then. We have been slowly moving stuff out, but want to keep an appearance we still occupy the house, in case there may be some $$ for C4K's. Does anyone have any idea how long after the trustee sale do we have to get out? How much notice do we get prior to the last chance to remove all our belongings before we are locked out. We are a bit concerned because the new place is 75 miles from this old house, and there are times when we are not at the old house for days. If we only get 72 hour advanced notice, we may miss the date by being away. Can anyone give us an idea of what happens next, how much time do we have, and what kind of notification we shoud receive.

[freedomwon]

foothills_bailer - I would advise you to be certain to get anything out that's of importance to you. Much to my dismay, I was locked out the day after trustee sale. Trustee sale was on a Thursday & by Friday we were locked out. No notice from an agent, no notice to quit, nothing. They broke in, changed the locks, & we called the Real Estate agent listed on the docs posted on the property. Agents v.m. mailbox was full, she didn't respond to e-mail, & it was very nerve racking. Wasn't able to get the rest of our stuff out till the following Monday.

[NoMoreHOAProperties]

I don't believe listing the property as an investment is the best move here. For one thing, your new loan would be a recourse loan.

I didn't know that an investment property is a recourse loan. If I decide down the road to refinance this loan and make it my primary home, is that possible? Will that covert the loan from recourse to non-recourse? Just like to keep some cards behind my back pockets for the future.

[foothills_bailer]

FREEDOMWON - WOW, IS THAT TRUE? Was your home actually sold at the Trustee Sale? I am seriously doubting this house will sell because it is soooo underwater! (Current value: $160K, starting sale price at auction: $290K). Was your home's value close to the minimum auction price?

Does anyone else have any info on this for us? We thought we still had some time to stay. It will be quite challenging if we need to get out now, but will do it if we have to. I thought they were required to give you at least 72 hours!

[freedomwon]

FREEDOMWON - WOW, IS THAT TRUE? Was your home actually sold at the Trustee Sale? I am seriously doubting this house will sell because it is soooo underwater! (Current value: $160K, starting sale price at auction: $290K). Was your home's value close to the minimum auction price?

Does anyone else have any info on this for us? We thought we still had some time to stay. It will be quite challenging if we need to get out now, but will do it if we have to. I thought they were required to give you at least 72 hours!

Yes, my home was sold at trustees sale for 1 penny over opening bid. Opening bid was just over 100k & I paid over 400k for the home. I was way upside down. If you want to try & get your sale postponed, you can read my thread over here My recent letter to BofA (Part 2) I had a very long battle with BofA.

Since you're pretty much out of there anyway, I can't emphasize enough to get yourself over there this weekend & get the rest of your stuff. If they suspect nobody is living in the home, they will change the locks.

[driftwood]

Talked to several brokers and I think I found a good one. He called me back today saying he has done some looking into things but needs a little more time. What I find most interesting with all the brokers I have spoken to is they have spent most of their time talking to me about what I plan to do with my current residence, not about my income, my down, reserves, credit, etc. I mean they asked about all that but most of the focus was placed on the intent of the current primary residence, especially since I explained I want to buy the new house to be my new primary residence. The broker that stands out suggested there are several ways to make a case for buying the new place as the primary and one of the strongest is to declare my intent to rent the old primary. He did say the underwriter would likely require a letter but possibly even an agreement with potential tenants. While that is all possible I just have to wonder what happens if I provide all that and the rentor backs out? I have managed rental property and well it happens a lot that people change their mind. I just dislike being locked into anything. This broker also suggested buying it as an investment property would likely sail through but requires a larger down and slightly higher rate. He is doing some more digging into buying as investment property vs primary, because I asked him what happens if I do that then decide to move into the place. He will have more answers for me next week.

Anyone else that did this, did you get lots of questions about your intent on the old place? Did they more inquisitive when you specified you wanted to buy the new place as your primary?

[TomEason]

driftwood

Thanks for your follow-up.

That broker sounds like a RE agent hankering for a listing on your existing (old) property, LOL.

As I mentioned previously, there are two ways to list your property on the loan app, 1) as pending sale or 2) a rental property. IMHO listing it as pending sale is easier because you needn't list the rental income and expenses. Or produce a rental agreement (either real or phony).

You concern about a renter backing out is easily handled. A landlord should always require a large deposit from the tenant. If the tenant then changes his/her mind, that prospective tenant will be out some money; you the landlord won't be.

You needn't consider buying the new property as an investment property. If you do so, the loan won't be classified as purchase money on your primary and hence would be non-recourse. In our state that will only matter for income taxes, as it's possible you could be assessed with tax attributable to CODI.

If it were me, I'd find an experienced loan broker who knows how to do this; and if possible one who's done it before.

As for your last question

Did they more inquisitive when you specified you wanted to buy the new place as your primary?

it's very common for homeowners to buy, then sell their existing home. There are multiple possible reasons: to move up, to downsize, buy in a different location, etc etc ad nauseum.

[driftwood]

TomEason, I appreciate the guidance, the input from yourself and others here on this site is really helping me think through what I need to do.

OK so I started to wonder myself about all the questions from this broker but he actually explained why he was asking. His basis was trying to understand how he would justify to a lender pending sale on my current primary which is underwater by ~$130K and that is using a very generous current market value. I told him I want to show my primary as pending sale, but considering the negative equity I expect that will have to be explained or am I assuming too much? I got the impression from 3 loan brokers already that I need to address that somehow. Granted the three I spoke to could all be pulling the wool over my eyes and/or clueless. So though I have appointments with a couple other brokers and will see what they say, personally I guess if I was an underwriter that would be a red flag to me.

The other option mentioned by this broker was to list as rental property. Yes you are correct the up front payment from the renter would cover me and I have owned other rental properties so I do get it. But I was more concerned about listing rental property then months after my new primary closes, my former goes to FC. Can that "intent" come back to bite me?


By the way the last part of your comment, would you mind clarifying? You said:

You needn't consider buying the new property as an investment property. If you do so, the loan won't be classified as purchase money on your primary and hence would be non-recourse.

Did you mean that the loan would be recourse rather than non-recourse [because it was purchased as an investment property]?

If that is the only implication, then it might be a risk I am willing to take just because at the end of the day it gets me out of a really bad investment (my current primary) that me and my family will be paying on for a very long time. My only concern with buying the property as an investment is what happens if I move into the place even though I said I was buying it as an investment. Are there legal issues there? Maybe I am over-thinking this.

[vantuckian]

I got asked once about my current property by the mortgage guy at the an actual bank, not a broker. Our "bail" house is probably about as much as underwater as yours. I told the guy that my parents will be moving back to the states in the future, and that it was going to be kept for them. I signed no docs about intent on that house. They did want to see the mortgage statements, maybe to see if the payment amount matched with what is reported in my credit report. It seems to me that if your DTI is ok, it shouldn't matter what you do with the old house.

Also, I was getting quotes from another bank as well, and even submitted docs. Not once did they ask about what I'm doing with my current residence.

Another data point is that at least 2 other houses in our "bail" house cul-de-sac were buy and sort-of bail, both owners decided to do short sales after closing on their next residence.

Maybe deal with a bank or credit union direct and see what happens, the brokers maybe all working from the same "script".

[TomEason]

driftwood

Thanks for your post.

IMHO you've been over-thinking this thing from the get go. I think you might enjoy worrying and thinking about anything that could conceivably go wrong, lol. No lender will be investigating you and trying to make you wrong. Lenders have neither the time, resources, or motivation to do so. Lenders make money by doing deals, not by looking for ways to reject loan applicants.

No other buy 'n bailers on these boards has had trouble with how they've showed their existing property on the loan application. And nobody else has needed to buy their replacement property as an investment property. Nor have they needed a lot of coaching.

This process shouldn't be that difficult. A loan broker will pre-qualify you for a purchase loan with a maximum amount. You'll then know what price range in which to search for your replacement property. Keep in mind you're allowed to get prequalified by more than one lender.

If it were me, I'd stop contemplating and get started now. Good luck.

[cheeseheadinga]

@Driftwood - i'm currently in the process of buying a home while owning my current underwater home. Ironically, I have an accepted offer on a short sale (waiting on the seller's lender approval). I've been pre-approved by my lender, and am in the process of "pre-underwriting." I've been asked to provide a letter of why I'm moving (need to down-size, will be closer to work and kid's school). So far I've met the various requirements - and it has never been suggested I buy as an investment property (I'm using my VA loan, so can't use that as an investment anyway).
I've not been asked to put in writing what I plan to do with my current property (who knows, that may happen yet). But I plan to go the rental route. If that doesn't work, I'll look into selling. More focus has been on me qualifying for the loan, not what I plan to do with my current home. Maybe you should just start the path, and if "bumps" come up down the road, deal with them as they arise. I understand about wanting to know about all of the potential issues that may come up - I was the same way 1.5 years ago...I was the epitome of proactiveness, lol....but I've read these boards, continued to educate myself, and come to the realization that we cannot control everything. We can have a plan in place, and our plans may or may not work out. So we respond as needed, when needed. Best of luck to you, and please continue to post your story!

@vantuckian - I noticed you mentioned your neighbors short-sold their previous homes after moving in to their new homes - do you know what their circumstances were? I.e - moved from out of state, or for work? I'm curious, if my rental plan doesn't work out, I may look into that route. Thanks!

[TomEason]

Hi cheeseheadinga

Thanks for your valuable post. It's good to hear from a buy 'n bailer currently undergoing the process.

It's great advice and I can't state it any better (or even as well, lol).

[vantuckian]

@cheeseheadinga Well, there were 3. Two I had a good enough neighborly relationships to find out how/what happened. Both have a hardship and qualify for a short-sale. I believe both managed to have deficiency waived as well. One was a hardship caused by marital separation, another is having to pay for care of an elderly relative. Honestly, the only thing gained through a short-sale, and that is if you think your finances won't cause the bank to demand "seller contribution", is that a short-sale MAY not take as long as a foreclosure (for a house in a non-recourse state, if recourse, then it maybe worthwhile to pursue SS because FC may cause the owner to also need to file bankruptcy, etc). For one house, it seemed a few months shy of a year. The other 2, well over a year. In fact, it may have been 2+ years for one of them. There is another house that got far enough to have notice-of-sale recorded with the county, but pulled back. It is now on the market, for 400k, which orig. sold for 695k in 2007. That house has 1000 more sq. ft. that our "bail" house.

[doneinca]

Don't let this scare you - I just wanted to address why the brokers are very concerned about your intentions...

When we bought our primary house 2 years ago, we rented out our previous house. We had to issue a letter of intent which we detailed out how much we thought we could rent it, what others in the neighborhood were renting out, that we were experienced landlords, yada yada. Of course later on, I asked my broker what happens to people who buy-n-bail. We were basically told that it is fraud and there are investigators lurking out there watching and waiting for this. Since home ownership is public record, they are able to connect the dots, pull the applications on both loans and then prove the fraud. MAJOR scare tactic! The broker did say that if they are under the impression a buy-n-bail was in process, they are required to back out and walk away. After doing my own research, the FBI has gone after brokers, real estate agents and others making a living in the field for fraud. This explains why the brokers are overly cautious. There have been arrests here in Sacramento, CA- pulled from the FBI website so CA is on thier radar. The brokers can loose thier licence, pay a huge fine and will face jail time if guilty of fraud. Personally - I don't recall seeing any individual homeowner under fire from the FBI. However on thier website, it does say they investigate mortgage application fraud. SO, as many have suggested in the forums, make sure anything you put in writing is 100% accurate. I got too detailed in my letter and had to live up to my intentions. However it has been 2 years and now we are bailing on the rental. I did not say we would deplete our savings or go broke trying to keep the payments current. I intended to rent out the house. I did. It isn't working out. Don't get stuck like we did.

[takeitback]

Just an update....two payments missed. No phone calls or contact from the bank. Just received acceleration letter saying we must pay in full by October 22nd (which will include the soon to be 3rd payment missed). I'm hoping they proceed with NOD immediately and a sale date 3 months later. Just want to get on with this. Nothing is worse than limbo.

takeitback

Welcome to the community, and congratulations on having completed the most challenging leg of your buy 'n bail!

If it were me, I wouldn't worry about the lack of contact by WF. And you have nothing to fear that WF is also the lender on your new property.

I applaud your savvy move; good luck!

[driftwood]

Thanks everyone who offered their experiences I appreciate hearing it. Admittedly as a few have suggested I am likely over analyzing the situation. However, my concern stems from conversations I have had with several brokers already as each one asked about the plan for my current residence and in fact a couple were digging into that piece more than I expected. I also read on this forum several folks suggesting in buy n bail situations to be extremely careful about signing and submitting letters of intent with the former residence or providing any other documentation about your primary as part of the new buy/loan documentation.

@doneinca - What you shared doesn't necessarily scare me but its what has kept me thinking through this strategy. I could care less about my credit score or having a FC on my record but the last thing I want is a fraud charge.

All that said, my wife lost her job last year and early this year I had to take a pay cut as a result of my company's restructuring, either that or become unemployed. Ultimately our income isn't what it used to be and this is limiting my options on the "buy" side. However, it appears because I can place a strong down, I would have an easier time doing the buy as an investment property. I understand that would open me up to a recourse loan but I think its a risk I can accept, since it means I do not have to declare any intent with my current primary.

To the points above and concerned that this might be a "fraud" action, I was up front and asked the broker about consequences if I move into the house right away and he spoke with a couple of lenders, none of which even suggested this would be fraudulent nor did they come back with anything of major concern. Granted he could be way off and there is something I might be missing so while I am searching for a new house I will continue to research. But with my DTI right now I may only really have two options, one to buy as an investment or two choose to stick it out in my current primary and research other options, like loan mod, etc. I guess there is a third option, continue looking for a broker that can get the loan done as a primary and no letter of intent, but talked to 4 already each with 10-20 years experience and they each are saying they need some documentation of intent as well as some reasoning for moving when our current primary is so significantly under water.

[vantuckian]

To the points above and concerned that this might be a "fraud" action, I was up front and asked the broker about consequences if I move into the house right away and he spoke with a couple of lenders, none of which even suggested this would be fraudulent nor did they come back with anything of major concern. Granted he could be way off and there is something I might be missing so while I am searching for a new house I will continue to research. But with my DTI right now I may only really have two options, one to buy as an investment or two choose to stick it out in my current primary and research other options, like loan mod, etc. I guess there is a third option, continue looking for a broker that can get the loan done as a primary and no letter of intent, but talked to 4 already each with 10-20 years experience and they each are saying they need some documentation of intent as well as some reasoning for moving when our current primary is so significantly under water.

Have you tried talking directly to a credit union or a bank about their mortgage products? Something seems fishy here with the brokers, unless something is very different in your specific area. I suppose you can try online ones like Quicken loans as well and see what they say. My new home is not far away either, so I'm not even sure if that is an issue. At signing/closing, there were no docs about the current home either.

I'm not sure what you mean by "declare any intent" w/ regards to your current home. Have you been asked to sign something? Or are the brokers going by what you say? Again, my mortgage guy asked once about it, and that was it.

You can intend to rent out and decide later that its not for you, doesn't cover enough of your expenses, etc and not go through with it. You can intend to have relatives stay and have them help out (or pay all of) the mortgage payments, but then they end up not following through. And if none of those apply, you can intend to sell it later down the road, how much later is up to you as well. I find it immensely strange that brokers care so much about your current residence.

No matter what you choose to do, you do what is best for you and your family, and being here at this forum is a good start no matter what you choose to do

[TomEason]

Hi vantuckian

Thanks for your post.

You offer sound advice. I agree with you that it's very strange that loan brokers would spend so much time inquiring about the homeowner's plans for his current home. Quite unusual.

[CCTX!]

Been a while but we are done with the B&B. Old house closed yesterday. Start to finish was seven months. Thankfully Wells Fargo agreed to a short sale and we walk away with $4500.00 for cash for keys. We were able to retain a renter the entire time because we gave them a discount with them knowing the mortgage situation. The rent money allowed us to upgrade the new home and stash some cash. Old home was $210K under water. New home was at the bottom, I hope, when we purchased back in March and now is on the way up in value. The guidance here provided comfort in knowing that others were going through the same process. Take care and good luck!

[TomEason]

Hi CCTX!

Thanks for your update, and congratulations on having completed your buy 'n bail!

I'm glad you were able to stash a bunch of $$ cash - enough to make some improvements in your new home.

All the best.

[takeitback]

Update: This month marks the 3rd missed payment. We received an acceleration letter last month, but the date (10/22) came and went and nothing happened. It doesn't appear anything has been reported to credit yet either. No NOD has been delivered. Last correspondence from WF was 10/31 and said our mortgage is close to being referred to foreclosure. While we have done the Buy portion of our B&B, we would still prefer to keep this home and rent out the newly purchased home (as originally planned) if WF would allow a meaninfgul modification. Unfortunately, we do not have the type of hardship needed. The hardship is the house itself...its dropped over $400,000 in value and is $300,000 underwater from the mortgage balance and in need of massive repairs which we are just not willing to invest in under the present terms. We've considered writing a letter such as this to WF. Not sure if it would do anything or worse yet, subject us to any consequences.

Here's the letter:

We are in receipt of various pieces of correspondence from Wells Fargo concerning the delinquency of our mortgage. While we prefer to stay in our home, we feel we do not have a choice but to allow Wells Fargo to foreclose. Not only has the property value declined significantly to the present $223,000 in comparison to the $507,000 owed and the original purchase price of $640,000, but the home is in need of extensive repairs totaling several thousand dollars that we simply cannot pay for.

The house is in need of a complete re-plumbing as it is 60 years old and we are constantly having pipes (which are in the attic) leak or burst. We have holes cut into the ceiling where we have had to repair the old galvanized plumbing as issues have arisen. One plumbing issue required us to access the secondary bath bathtub to fix a leak. In doing so, we learned that the tub is not even sitting on a concrete foundation….it is on dirt!!

There appears to be serious septic issues as drainage has become a problem. Water comes up in the kitchen sink when someone is showering and the master bathroom has a frequent septic type odor. A plumbing issue occurred while we were out of town for a weekend and the master bathroom, closet and bedroom were flooded and sat soaking for 3 days. We are now living on concrete floor in the master bedroom and closet. The washing machine drains onto the front yard as we had to disconnect it from the septic system because the septic apparently cannot handle the load.

We’ve been told by an electrician that a complete rewiring of the house is in order as it poses a fire hazard. The main breaker panel is out of code in many ways and the wiring that was used outside (Romex) is also not up to code and should not even be exposed to the elements. It appears this wiring was done as a “home job” and not by a professional contractor. There has been buzzing in the walls, the wiring to two outlets have melted in the wall and the appliances are wired to too few of circuits per the electrician.

Our neighbor who has lived next door for many years and is a real estate appraiser, advised that this house had major foundation issues a few years before we purchased it and she is not aware of any repair that was done to the home. There is a natural spring on the property that is approximately 40 feet from the north west corner of the home which is the result of an underground water source that is near the surface of the ground. It is suspected that this water source has caused shifting in the foundation. There is a severely leaning wall in the home that runs from that same corner of the home that is likely related to this as well.

The home has termite issues as a swarm has come out of an interior wall at the baseboard in the late spring this year.

We have tried to patch up the issues to the best of our abilities but are at the end of what we can do. It is disturbing to us that the plumbing and electrical issues as well as the foundation issues were not addressed in the home inspection at the time of purchase. These are major function and safety requirements and had we known we would’ve been facing extensive repairs in short order, we would’ve likely opted to not purchase the home. We feel as if we were completely duped as buyers. I’m happy to send pictures of all of these referenced issues.

If the investor was willing to modify our loan by reducing principal of at least $200,000 and the interest rate to market rates, we would definitely be interested in keeping our home as this would provide the funds we need to repair the home and reduce our negative equity making the home a worthwhile investment. An interest rate modification alone would not be sufficient. However, we’ve done extensive research on our options to avoid foreclosure and unfortunately it appears there are no options available to us. Our loan is not Fannie or Freddie owned and we do not have the required hardship to qualify for a modification (i.e. job loss, divorce, etc.). Our hardship is the home itself.

This is not a decision we take lightly. This was where we intended to stay for the rest of our lives. We have paid over $321,000 into this home over the past 5 ½ years and we will walk away with nothing and our good credit will be ruined.

We will await Wells Fargo’s advice as to next steps. Wells Fargo should consider themselves informed about these issues, some of which are safety related, because if the property ends up as an REO, it may become a liability issue for the bank/investor/owner.


Thoughts anyone? Waste of time? Let it go and move on? Thanks.