Appliance Question

[tryingtostay]

Our local Craiglist in So CA is filled with appliance packages (oven, dishwasher, microhood) that are only a couple of years old.

My assumption is that these are all foreclosure appliances.

I know when you buy a new house from a builder it was not expected to get appliances with a house (until recently, and only select builders). Are appliances considered part of the house in CA?

I guess the bigger question is, will the lender take action if the appliances are missing from a house?

I was talking to someone and they said they were looking at repos to buy and some houses even had the air conditioners missing. Is there reprecussions on selling the a/c units? I also see window coverings, door knobs, granite countertops, kitchen cabinets, tiles from floor... well, you name it. What CA law prevents people from gutting the house before it goes to foreclosure?

I don't intend to do it at all, I am just curious. I may dig up some of my favorite flowers but that's about it. ( I saw the pig article... , I certainly wouldn't do that!)

[cactus77727]

Yeah, I was going to Craigslist my washer, dryer and refrigerator, but no way. Too much supply. I'm not selling them for a song. So I'm taking mine with me. Storing them at relatives, till I use again someday.

[The Professor]

The determining factor is what your foreclosing lender has a security interest in. The answer is typically real property. The challenge becomes determining what falls into that definition and for some things it is an easy answer. For example the land is clearly real property. So to are buildings that are permanently affixed to the land. The struggle begins when we start talking about what constitutes a "fixture" and what does not constitute a "fixture" when we are talking about something that could be characterized as "personal property." Because residential lenders typically do not have a security interest in personal property.

Let me provide you with examples that are similar but on both sides of this line between "personal property" and "real property - fixtures", that are, based upon my personal feelings and beliefs categorized.

Your non-built in refrigerator is personal property and can be removed. That custom size built into the cabinets stainless steel refrigerator is a fixture (and hence real property).

That under the counter dishwasher is a fixture (and hence real property), although this is a close call.

That washer and dryer free standing set that came with the house is personal property.

That water heater is a fixture (and hence real property).

Those custom shutters designed to fit that custom sized window is a fixture (and hence real property), although this is a close call.

Those shutters you bought at home depot off the shelf that fit that standard window are personal property.

That custom $5,000 light fixture that looks great above your dining table is personal property (please leave a cheap imitation behind).

Take care,

Daniel

[Argh!]

The way I always understood it is this... If you could turn your house upside down. What ever doesn't fall out stays with the house.

[maxx233]

Well, here's what *I'm* doing:

If I sucessfully shortsale, basically all the stuff stays unless it's specifically negotiated out of the deal. This is to avoid liability. If someone comes through and looks at the house they can expect to have all the fixtures (Like Argh said, anything that doesn't fall out) come with the house in the same way those fixtures were presented to them when they originally toured the house. Even my projection system (my equiv of a TV) would stay because it's attached to the ceiling and wires run through the walls - to the buyer it's presented as a part of the house by legal definition. I accept this loss because it'll be better for my credit, and really - I can buy all new stuff when I'm ready for it and not have to store it!

Now if I foreclose... Whole different story. The projection system's coming with me and the bank will be left wondering why on earth there's a hole in the ceiling (it's just a small hole, for wires.) My super nice dishwasher is coming with me, which would leave a big hole where I obviously tore apart the cabinets to install a dishwasher - which is why I'd leave a crappy craigslist dishwasher in its place to avoid liability. My nice light fixtures are coming with me and getting yardsale specials instead. My nice ceiling mounted pot rack comes with me. The nice lock I have on the front door is even coming with me. I have a list! The only catch is that when I take something I need to replace it with a crappier version in most cases, unless it's something that won't be obvious/expected/even known to have been there in the first place, like the projector/pot rack. And the really sucky part is that at least some of this stuff will have to be stored for a long time while I'm an apartment dweller :\

[The Professor]

Better to sell it on Craigs List than go the storage route where you have to pay for storage.

Daniel

[maxx233]

I'm *probably* going to have to pay for storage anyway, the cost has already been factored into all my decision making. I have too much crap to cram into an apartment, and too much stuff I just don't want to lose/replace later. The sucky part isn't so much the cost of storing it as it is that I just won't be able to use some of my stuff while I'm an apartment dweller. Like.. I'm going to smuggle my dishwasher in and put their crappy one in storage til it's time to move out, but I probably can't install my pot rack for instance. Maybe if I can get rid of enough junk I'll make a deal with family so they can borrow my nice stuff as long as they store a small amount of crap

[dogatemy]

I was given a 50k HELOC by Chase in 2007. In May of 2008 Chase canceled my HELOC during renovation (after my entire kitchen, 2 rooms and flooring were removed/demolished) basically leaving me with a very expensive warehouse. I have lived here without complaint until earlier this month.

I called Chase asking them to re-instate my HELOC. In response Chase threatened to put me in default because I don't have a kitchen saying it is my problem and my responsibility to find the funding for a new kitchen. They gave me 60 days before they send out an inspector. If I don't have a kitchen then they threatened to put me in 'universal default' which is 35%. (They were careful not to threaten foreclosure).

Since they won't recant their threats (and put it in writing) I have refused to continue making payments. I can't afford 35% interest on a $30k debt and I can't afford to spend another $20k in renovations on a house maybe worth $90k (with a kitchen) where I owe $160k. What would be worse is actually getting the kitchen installed after they put me in default which would mean they would foreclose anyway and get a new kitchen out of the deal.

The house included a 30 year old failing AC/heat pump unit when I bought it so I replaced it with an upgraded 13 seer 3.5 ton that I paid for out of my pocket. I planned to leave the AC unit if the house was foreclosed on but now i'm debating taking it with me. I really wouldn't mind if the AC unit went to another family but without a kitchen, a wall and flooring I do not see how some family can manage to buy and renovate in this market to the satisfaction of a lender. I suspect the house will be sold to an investor. He'll probably buy the house at auction, exploit some Mexican labor, use some cheap materials then sell the house at a premium. This is what lead us to this mess in the first place.

Does anyone know if I would be legally liable for removing the AC unit? What about the light fixtures? I bought some really beautiful ceiling fans that I could use in an investment property that I own (and I will probably have to move into).

I have pictures of the 55 year old cabinets, sub-standard quality flooring and failing AC unit that were included with the house when I bought it. If the bank decided to sue me for deficiency then I wonder..

- Would I be legally liable for the VALUE of the originoal cabinets and AC unit or the cost of installing brand new cabinets and A/C unit?
- Would all the other improvements to the house offset the losses? (New ventilation system, landscaping, electrical upgrades, etc)

[tryingtostay]

Thank you Professor for your very helpful response.

Dogatemy, I do not know the answers to your questions but I do empathize with your dilemma. We spent a great deal of time researching and then installing an upgraded 13 SEER A/C system with new ventilation in a house. We then sold that house less than a year later. The new owners did not care about the energy efficiency of the unit, nor appreciate that the ventilation system was repaired from the original design flaw of tract houses. Before we replaced the a/c there, we had days our "cool" living room was 105 degrees mid afternoon. We could have replaced it with any cheap model just to have a working one, had we seen into the future we'd move so soon.

Can you switch the a/c of your investment property that you are moving into with the upgraded one? What about the cabinets?

[CaWalker]

If I decide to do a short sale, I'll stick Post It notes saying "Not Included" on everything that I plan to take with me. That way the buyer knows what he's getting into.

[dogatemy]

Drywall - Not Included
hehehehe..

tryingtostay: The investment property is nicer than my house. It actually has a kitchen with brand new cabinets. The investment property is also larger which makes the 3.5 ton in my existing house too small.

My plan was to find an AC guy willing to take the 3.5 ton and trade it for a 5.5 ton and cash. Of course I have moral reservations.

[maxx233]

lol.. That's probably a good idea Walker. The only thing I'd really like to take with me, oddly enough, is my pot rack. Just cause I really like this one and it's not available anymore. But putting stuff like that in the RE paperwork tends to be a turnoff for potential buyers to even come out and look :\ For the most part I'd rather sell the place than worry about stuff so much it costs me a sale, and therefore the better credit recovery path. So maybe not mentioning it, getting the people out to look, then seeing one or two small things with sticky notes would be OK. Hmm...