Old 04-08-2009, 06:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
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negotiated short payoff....????

Hello to all,

Pertinant Info:
purchase price: 672k, 2005, ca. Current value @475k per Zillow
504k on 1st, 168k on 2nd, all purchase money,
NOD recorded with first on 02/20/09, submitted NACA proposal
The second has received no money for 6 mos.

Spoke with the holder of my second on Monday. I have, as the Prof has suggested in an earlier thread of mine, to deal from a position of stregnth. Told the 2nd that I have a mod in the works, but it may be months before I get an answer and even if I am granted a mod, I may not take it because of overall economy. I have been saying this to them for over a month.
On Monday, the rep brought up the possibility of a "negotiated short payoff" and said that they generally accept 10 to 20% of outstanding balance. Earlier in the conversation. I got the rep to tell me that they would take 6K for a short sale.

So (especially to the Prof)
1) what are the general parameters of acceptance for a short payoff
2)how long might the second wait before giving up and selling the debt to a collector? is that their most likely course of action?


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Old 04-08-2009, 10:09 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Refresh my recollection. I think the home is in California and both loans are purchase money. Am I right?

Daniel
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Yes, that is correct.
Home in Calif, both loans for purchase only.
I have been residing in the property the entire time.

Thank You...
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Old 04-08-2009, 02:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

If you don't mind, I have a question for you.
Why would the 2nd sell the loan to a collection agency when the loan is non recourse and secured by the property.
thanks
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Old 04-08-2009, 02:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Slojj,
If the primary interest position of the 1st mortgager decides to foreclose, then the 2nd mortgager will be left with nothing, no security. Therefore, when it seems to them that they won't be getting anything it makes more sense to sell the loan for a tiny percentage of its balance so they don't have to deal with it and they at least get *something* with certainty.
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:05 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Maxx,
Can you clear something up for me? I am confused do to the original post regarding the collection agency question.
If the 2nd is a non recourse loan, what good is it to them to sell the loan to a collection agency. I understand if the 2nd would settle with the homeowner for an agreed pay off. But what can a collection agency do if the loan is only secured by the property.
thanks
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:31 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Hmm.. Maybe I'm confused as well I know that if it were recourse the 2nd could still go after you because they haven't had their single action yet by either foreclosure or suing you. But I think I did miss the detail of it being purchase money (always a big deal), and therefore non recourse. So yeah, you're right, I don't think the 2nd has any course of action really. I mean.. they can still sell it to any collection agency dumb enough to buy it, but I really don't think the collection agency would have anything on you legally other than trying to harrass you. I could definitely be wrong still though. I'm not sure what happens to the loan after the 1st forecloses for instance - does one keep getting a credit hit every month showing non-payment?

OK, yeah, I'm confused too Professor?
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:23 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

This question sort of reminds me of a story I've often shared about my college roommate. He was more successful at getting dates than I was. He used the same approach telemarketers utilize. Turn downs didn't bother him at all.

Well the same thing applies here. How many foreclosed out homeowners are aware of the "non-recourse" treatment afforded some (not all) borrowers? Now you certainly do but I'm guessing that is a direct result of participating on this forum. And when that collection agency calls you seeking to collect on that unsecured second note, my guess is you are going to point them to the appropriate state law that protects you and they will eventually go away (probably after you provide them with a letter explaining that you will no longer tolerate their violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act).

But, as that old saying goes, "there's no harm in asking." Heck who knows, sometimes you'll get lucky if you ask often enough.

Daniel
[Wishing I'd get lucky.....]
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:37 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Daniel thanks for the help.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

congrats on your negotiations with your 2nd. My second holder is a real stick in the mud. Have you heard of anyone having sucess getting BOFA to settle a 2nd?
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

back to original question....
Professor, from your experience, what are the general parameters for a negotiated short payoff (if any)?.....
they claimed they would accept 10 to 20%
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Old 04-10-2009, 06:25 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Bailey's Dad:

My answer assumes that the person on the other side of the table has a reasonable level of understanding the negotiations process (an assumption you probably shouldn't make).

It is much like a poker game insofar as it deals with "house rules" and the cards you are dealt. "House rules" include laws, foreclosure processes, internal matters like whether the negotiator works for the loan servicer or loan owner, etc.). The cards you are dealt include things like your ability to current credit score, the size of the equity shortfall, your net worth (in terms of other assets out there), etc.

I'm sort of a fan of presenting a "I got nothing to lose" approach to negotiation. Saying things like, "I'm going to like living here for a real long time as I don't have to make payments," help. Bottom line in all of this is external circumstances have a lot of influence on the way things go.

Daniel
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Old 04-10-2009, 06:36 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Thank you, prof...
I've been taking the line with the second that a lot of the decision is out of my hands (re: whether the first offers a helpful mod), but that I will not stay in the house unless it is in my long term interest to do so. Since they did broach the subject of a short payoff, I am thinking that is the tack I will take.
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:40 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

bailey's dad - I personally feel that the best approach in attempting to negotiate a short-pay on a 2nd is to advise them of an existing or imminent deliquency on the 1st and an inevitable foreclosure. If anything is going to put a 2nd's back to the wall (assuming they are going to end up being a sold-out junior due to no remaining funds after the 1st is satisfied) it's an imminent total loss. If the 2nd knows you may get a mod on the 1st, that may take away some of the urgency and willingness to take what they can get.

I estimate that within 24 months I will be playing this game with my $100K 2nd, which is well-unsecured by this point. My approach will be to - while still current - request a short pay of $2500. Assuming no deal then, I will stop paying the 2nd and request the short pay every time they contact me, as well as advise them that the 1st will soon be delinquent and I will let them foreclose. I will provide the 2nd with neighborhood comps clearly indicating they are hopelessly unsecured. I will ultimately agree to a short pay up to about $5K. My party line to the 2nd will be take the $5K while I've got it, I may not have it next week or next month.

If I don't make any headway, I will stop paying the 1st as well. As time goes by I will keep the 2nd updated as to my level of delinquency on my 1st and the impending foreclosure. I am prepared to take it almost all the way to get the 2nd to cave and take anything as opposed to getting completely wiped out when the 1st forecloses. If the 2nd won't deal even at the bitter end, I will either let the 1st foreclose or I will bring the 1st current prior to foreclosure, depending on what makes the most sense at that time.

When I get this going I will be sure to keep everyone here apprised.
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

who is your 2nd with? If it's with BOFA gooood luck.
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

mirkus35 - my 2nd is with GMAC. I have no idea if they will be willing to play ball. I look forward to the process - I think it will actually be pretty interesting and maybe even fun. I have nothing to lose but my 720 FICO...
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Old 06-14-2009, 06:33 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

An update....As of June, I moved into the "Recovery Dept" of Specialized Loan. I have a single contact, a nice young lady by the name of Heather. Initially she offered me yet another "streamlined" modification, that is to say, no financials needed. The rate was 3.75 for a payment of 805.00, which was down from their previous streamlined offer of 1025. My original payment was 1,459. Said I would think about it....
Next time we spoke I said it didn't really make sense. I told her that the second was, at this point, hopelessly unsecured, and becoming more so by the moment. Somehow we got to the point of a longer-term situation and she mentioned that they would continue to pursue collections after a foreclosure, if that were the ultimate outcome. I informed her that it was purchase money in a non-recourse state

(THANK YOU, PROFESSOR SHAYS, four months ago I had no idea what that meant!!!!)

and that I would use my protection under the Fair Debt Collections Act. She said "Yes, you could issue a Cease and Desist". Then she immediately shifted gears and mentioned a negotiated short payoff in the amount of 10% (loan balance 168K). I told her I had nowhere near that amount and probably no sources to get it it. She said they were willing to wait and I said fine...for the immediate short term, it may work in my favor.
So Professor, what determines how long they wait before they take this loan as a "charge against earnings" ?( I've been reading up a little). They have not received a payment since August 08, although I did have a two-month forebearance that made my next payment due Nov 08, so that makes it 8 months as a non-performing asset..

Last edited by baileys dad; 06-14-2009 at 06:34 AM.. Reason: speling:)
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

The practical issue you face is eventually they will reach a point where they package this and other similar "non-recourse" second loans together and sell them at a deep discount to a group who will adopt a "wait and see" attitude. Given my knowledge on the subject, if the discounted purchase price was substantial where it could be characterized as nominal in nature, I'd love to invest in a portfolio of these loans. Why? Well you can serve the role of a spoiler. Let the borrower and the first lender negotiate a great modification. It isn't so much that the borrower benefits. Truth is the holder of that discounted second note benefits more than the borrower. Because eventually the borrower will do one of two things. Default (and lose the property to a foreclosure on the first loan) or sell. When it comes time to sell, guess who needs to be satisfied? Yes it is that company that owns the second loan and they probably paid a few cents on the dollar to position themselves in the role of spoiler.

So in other words, two factors make this second loan more valuable. First, as market conditions reverse, and the property becomes more valuable, that second loan which can be characterized as a sunken ship (in terms of being underwater), will rise to the surface, and little by little its structure will begin to climb above the waterline. Second, as you negotiate a successful modification with the first lender, this effort will provide the owner of the second loan a collateral benefit, increasing its chances that you will continue to service the first debt, keeping the second lien alive.

My suggestion is that you continue down the negotiations path, pointing out that the market continues to drop and you are seriously considering letting the first loan foreclose. This isn't what the owner of the second loan wants to hear and it may help to get them to consider a settlement offer that provides a mere nominal payment that they will find acceptable.

Good luck,

Daniel
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:08 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

I'm with CW and just missed my second payment. The house is 100K under and my wife just lost her job. Only way we can stay is to wipe the second. Both my 1st and 2nd are puchase money in CALI and owned by CW. I would like to see if it's possible to settle the second (owe 100K) for like 5K max and then get a fixed rate on the first which is set to adjust in Dec. Any suggestions? Thanks.
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Old 06-20-2009, 04:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Hello Prof,
I just found out via my credit report that the second has been charged-off. As it pertains to me, is this just bookkeeping? From what I understand, they are saying, for tax and accounting purposes, that they anticipate being able to get no money from the performance of the loan and they have lost the money. Is that right?

Do the pooling and servicing agreements (this is a second mortgage, purchase money in Ca) dictate how much they will accept in a negotiated short payoff?
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Old 06-20-2009, 09:29 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

The term "charge off" has a variety of meanings, but what it doesn't mean is that you are no longer legally liable for the debt.

As to Pooling and Servicing Agreements, you may find the information provided below that I managed to find on the Internet helpful. Having been outside of the business before these Wall Street creatures became so popular, I'm just not familiar with how they work, but I suspect given the amount of foreclosures and how slow the process of how lenders and loan servicers react to mortgage delinquencies, that there isn't the uniformity on these Pooling and Servicing Agreements, meaning each situation differs.

Daniel

The Pooling and Servicing Agreement is the “glue” that binds all of the securitization players together. The PSA is typically filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, although you might have to dig a bit to find the one that governs the securitized trust that owns your loan.

The PSA is designed to comply with the Internal Revenue Service’s REMIC rules to ensure that the trust enjoys pass-through tax liability. In other words, the investors of the trust (a.k.a. certificateholders) get paid the average rate of return on the thousands of home loans without the U.S. Government getting a cut first.

Of course, the earnings are taxable at the individual taxpayer level, but each individual investor has its own tax strategy, and the pass-through status improves the return on investment. Failure to comply with the PSA will destroy the tax-free status of the trust, causing significant losses to the investors.

As I stated, the PSA is a very long and complex document, but some of its general features need to be understood by the homeowner wishing to combat his or her pending foreclosure:

• The PSA requires that all promissory notes must be endorsed by the originator and delivered to the trustee shortly after the creation of the trust. Similarly, an Assignment of Mortgage must accompany each note. In reality, this NEVER happens, and the consequences of this failure are potentially catastrophic for the trust. I surmise that the mortgage-backed securities market was so white-hot that actual delivery of these critical documents just got in the way of an “efficient” process.

• The PSA requires the servicer to make mortgage payments to the trust regardless of whether it actually receives the payment from the homeowner. The only way to stop paying the monthly payment is to foreclose on the home.

• The pool is static, which means only 5% of the 10,000 mortgages can be modified without destroying the REMIC status. Essentially, this is why a government purchase of troubled loans is impossible. The only way to modify loans pooled together in the securitized trust is to change the bankruptcy code, providing a bankruptcy judge the power to do it.

• Default servicing pays more money. The trust has an escrow account to pay litigation fees to servicers, and the servicer gets to keep all late fees and junk fees paid by the homeowner. This means the servicer is incentivized to default a home loan and its motivation is at odds with its client, the securitized trust.

• The largest default servicer in the country is based in Jacksonville – Fidelity National Default Solutions (now known as LPS Default Title and Closing). This is essentially a shadow company that makes it’s money through both legitimate and nefarious methods. It has been known to fabricate loan data, create falsified court documents and charge illegal fees to homeowners. FNDS hires the foreclosure lawyers on behalf of the securitized trust and does not permit the lawyers to directly communicate with the trust, even though the trust is the actual plaintiff in the case.

This list is just the tip of the iceberg, and it is designed to give the homeowner a start in the right direction. There are other, more in-depth, explanations of a PSA, and this will hopefully provide a foundation for deeper study of this complex document.
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Old 06-20-2009, 11:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Well Professor,
I am wondering if yo ever got lucky?? hehee. I am finally getting around to coming back into this thread. i just started on the 3 month trial mod after not making a payment for 1 year. I dont have warm and fuzzy feelings about permanent modification because i think in the end i am so much underwater (100k) and market where I am at wont rebound for many years to come. I stopped making HELOC payments 2 mths ago after I was servd Notice of SALE. It isnt all that big (30K) but it is equal to 12 mth delinquent payments. I am just starting negotiations for the 2nd. I am of the position that I am almost ready to let the house go and figure the trial mod just bought me some time. I figure I shouldnt hold back the fact I am ready to let the foreclosure proceed if I cant get 2nd to negotiate. Either way its in my best interest to do so.
Interesting about the pooling and servicing agreements. Doesnt "charge-off" mean its is has or will be sold to a collection agency?
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Old 06-20-2009, 11:39 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: negotiated short payoff....????

Jacksonville, it it a coincidence that that is where WAMU (now Chasee) Loss Mitigation and Bk department is?
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