How Do You *Really* Know When the Mod is Approved?

[HowDidIGetHere?]

I know this likely sounds like a completely ridiculous question, but how do I know for certain when the loan modification is complete, absent receiving a signed copy of the Loan Modification Agreement I sent to CitiMortgage?

About two months ago I received a Loan Modification Agreement, signed, notarized and returned it. At that point, I was told the modification was complete. Wrong.

Several weeks went by and I didn't receive a copy of the signed contract. I later learned that there was some immaterial issue with the escrow account calculation (those are usually adjusted annually, anyway, so seems suspect) that changed my new monthly payment by a whole $0.35/mo. I believed I was done with the process after the first contract, but instead had to sign, notarize and return yet another Loan Modification Agreement.

I completed the trial period payments (actually, made 4 so far). There's the other issue of when (or if) my next payment is due. At one point, I was told that this was similar to traditional mortgage refinancing whereby the current month's payment is *not* due. In other words, you get to skip a payment. Given the number of times CitiMortgage has lied to me, or provided absolutely and irrefutably incorrect information, I don't know what to believe.

The website, when I enter my account and look at the loan details, states the next payment is due May 1, 2012. If I look in the Monthly Statement section, it says I owe current plus all past due payments April 1. The Payment History section shows I made a payment, today, that is about twice my new payment amount (and I did not send in a payment). And as if that isn't enough, when I log into the Citi website, it states they can help get my account current, but when I go to another section is shows the Loan Modification has been approved and I should follow the terms of the contract regarding payment dates and amount.

Bottom line is the first time I sent in the Agreement, they didn't sign and return it but instead later sent me another one. If I can, I'd like to not make the April payment - as they claim I do not need to do - and on the website it says my next due date is May 1 plus the contract states the same thing (May 1 is next payment date). In the event Citi screws something up again (e.g., like they did as recently as last month over a $0.35/mo calculation), I don't want to show as not having made my monthly payment and somehow get this Loan Mod Agreement tossed out and have to start over for a third time).

Getting back to the topic of this post, how do I know when I really have a loan modification? Should I work of the assumption that since their track record is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE (this is the second time I've gone through the Loan Mod process, getting ALL the paperwork only to learn I my prior application wasn't assigned to someone so I had to start over... this goes back to February 2010) I should assume nothing is legally binding until I get the contract and make the April 1 payment (no, the irony of everything going sideways on me because of a "missed" payment on April Fool's day isn't lost on me)?

I've documented everything on the website, including the pages that state my next payment is due 5/1/12. However, there are so many inconsistencies on the website regarding the status of my loan I don't know what to do! I'm reluctant to trust what ANYONE from Citi says, even if on a recorded call, because - among many other examples - after making payment arrangements before I've had Citi call me later to tell me "management has 'deleted' the prior agreement we had and now your house is going into foreclosure."

Is it reasonable for me to expect to ever get a copy of that contract (I signed/notarized two copies)? If so, how long has it taken? Do I make the next payment due April 1 even though my assigned loan specialist states my next payment isn't due until May 1?

Many thanks in advance for any help!


p.s., I just received this email from Citi: "I am pleased to inform you that your loan solution documents have been received, and we are processing your new solution. Please refer to your 1st Payment Letter and/or Approval Letter for details on the amount and times that your payments are due.

It has been a pleasure to be able to work with you and provide a solution."

Only problem is I haven't received a "1st Payment Letter and/or Approval Letter" from them! Furthermore, learning they are "processing your new solution" bothersome. Isn't everything supposed to be processed right now and what happens if something gets screwed up?

[Evan Bedard]

I completed the trial period payments (actually, made 4 so far). There's the other issue of when (or if) my next payment is due. At one point, I was told that this was similar to traditional mortgage refinancing whereby the current month's payment is *not* due. In other words, you get to skip a payment. Given the number of times CitiMortgage has lied to me, or provided absolutely and irrefutably incorrect information, I don't know what to believe.

First off, would never trust anything your online account states when you are going through the loan modification process. More often than not the online account is going to list inaccurate information or will take quite some time to be updated with the correct status. If you are just about to make your 4th trial period the process is not yet complete. You will be sent another agreement explaining the new terms of your mortgage and that will be your permanent modification. Personally I would not stop making your trial period payments until you have the final paperwork in hand. These reps can tell you anything over the phone but nothing is valid until you receive it in writing..

[HowDidIGetHere?]

As there are only three officially designated "trial period" payments, any payments made that are less than the originally agreed upon amount after that - I would think - are technically insufficient in terms of meeting the original contract, right? I mean, I don't think there's anything that counts as a 4th trial period payment, since I've never seen any "trial period" that extends beyond three payments...

But, before I continue, THANK YOU for your response. I agree it's virtually impossible to be too careful. THAT SAID, I have the following question:

IS AN EMAIL FROM A REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE ESCALATION/EXECUTIVE RESPONSE DEPT THAT STATES "NO PAYMENT DUE UNTIL MAY 1" SUFFICIENT TO NOT MAKE THAT PAYMENT? Or should I wait until I have a signed copy of the contract in hand?

When you refinance a loan, it's not unusual - from my experience and those to whom I've spoken - to get to "skip" a payment because that payment is included in the closing cost amount (or perhaps in this case, added to the principal balance).

Paying my trial period amount is less than the amount originally agreed upon. It is consistent with the loan mod payment schedule, which they provided me in the contract. So, basically paying that new amount on April 1 is not "officially" making a full payment until the loan mod contracted is executed. In other words, is making that payment when a contract isn't executed - or skipping that payment altogether - all that different?

What I'm trying to figure out is if I need to make my April 1 payment when the Citi rep and the people from Loan Mod Help Center are telling me it ISN'T necessary??? The latest post reinforces my opinion that the website material is wholly unreliable and shouldn't be counted upon for, well, really anything.

So is an email (written communication) from a rep (at any level of Citi management) that states "payment not due until May 1st" and indicates I do not need to make a payment April 1 sufficient???

Given the prior response (thank you, again) and my personal experience - my guess is no. I believe I need a copy of the contract in hand. That said, I feel odd making a "trial period" payment amount (not consistent with original loan) and believing that I should take comfort in that. If I don't have an agreement to modify my loan in accordance with the terms of the loan mod (which states make next payment May 1), then why have confidence that paying the amount specified is sufficient??

[Evan Bedard]

So is an email (written communication) from a rep (at any level of Citi management) that states "payment not due until May 1st" and indicates I do not need to make a payment April 1 sufficient???

Given the prior response (thank you, again) and my personal experience - my guess is no. I believe I need a copy of the contract in hand. That said, I feel odd making a "trial period" payment amount (not consistent with original loan) and believing that I should take comfort in that. If I don't have an agreement to modify my loan in accordance with the terms of the loan mod (which states make next payment May 1), then why have confidence that paying the amount specified is sufficient?

I totally feel where you are coming from and trust me I have seen hundreds if not thousands of people go through the HAMP trial period.. If you read around you will find almost everyone ends up having to make 4-6 trial payments before a final decision has been made. Even though you are only supposed to be required to make three, I have seen many people denied permanent assistance because they choose to stop making the trial payments before a decision was made even though the contract only said 3 payments were required.. Really all HAMP is is a set of guidelines for servicers to follow and is not actual laws they are forced to abide by, because of this servicers can deny and approve modification as they please.. I would definitely read around and look at other members experiences.. However, your case is a little different because servicers generally will not even give email confirmation about the mortgage being approved and that you can skip next months payment will the paperwork is rendered.. Here try contacting Frank and Michael below who work for Citi, they are both also members here in the forum and have been doing an excellent job assisting borrowers in a very timely matter..

Michael Cardace
michael.cardace@citi.com

Frank Eliason
frank.eliason@citi.com

[HowDidIGetHere?]

Wanted to give you a quick thanks for your fast responses. You do have a very good idea of what I'm going through and it's difficult to express how much that means to me. Trying to explain to the frustration of this process to others is - particularly how emotionally draining it can be - is virtually impossible.

I'll follow up with the leads you offered and see what happens. My sense is there's a 90-95% probability I'll be okay missing the payment (in accordance with the Agreement), but when the stakes are this high and I'm this invested in the outcome, those odds are unacceptable.

Thanks again!

[Evan Bedard]

No problem and I appreciate the kind words very much! Everyone here is very understandable and so many people are in the same position going through the HAMP trial. This is one of the most grueling processes most people will ever endure and it ****s knowing that these agreements are never guaranteed. I truly wish you the best and I hope the permanent modification arrives shortly as Citi has promised! Please keep us updated and I/others will do all we can to assist you if you have any more questions.

Good luck!

[HowDidIGetHere?]

I just received the following CitiMortgage secure email via PDF file from my Executive Response Specialist moments ago:

"Good afternoon. We have not only received your documents, but your permanent modification is now applied and active on your account. Your account is paid to date through 4/1/2012, which means your next payment will be your modified payment of $1556.82 and it will be due 5/1/2012. [Emphasis added]

Your copy of the signed agreement (which is what you sent back to us, except Citi has to sign it now) should be sent out to you in the next 30 days. You should begin receiving your normal statements again as the account is now current. [Emphasis added]

I'm glad this is finally resolved for you, its been a pleasure working with you and if you have any further questions please feel free to reach out to me!

Thank you and have a good day"

This was in response to the following email I sent earlier:

"Could you please confirm that the Loan Modification Agreement dated March 27 that you mentioned was uploaded in the system is in effect, approved, and/or finalized by CitiMortgage?

In other words, is it correct that from this point forward I need to abide by the terms of the Agreement - including next payment date and amount? I’m assuming this is the case since I delivered a signed, notarized Agreement by the required date and I made all necessary trial period payments on time. However, I don’t have anything that states this is accurate.

An email I received Thu 3/29/2012 11:01 AM states, “I am pleased to inform you that your loan solution documents have been received, and we are processing your new solution. Please refer to your 1st Payment Letter and/or Approval Letter for details on the amount and times that your payments are due.”

Although there is reference to a “1^st Payment Letter and/or Approval Letter” in the email, I have not received this document (perhaps it in the mail?). Assuming it’s been sent, would it be possible to get a copy of this letter faxed or emailed to me today?

The crux of the issue is the contract states the next payment is due May 1, 2012, but I do not have an Approval Letter or other written confirmation the Agreement is finalized by CitiMortgage. As a result, I don’t know if I need to make a payment on April 1, 2012, or abide by the Agreement and make my next payment May 1, 2012.

I would greatly appreciate any assistance you can offer. As I’m sure you can understand, I’m eager to get documentation of some nature this Loan Modification process is officially finalized so I know when my next payment is due."

So, is this secure email sent from the executive response department sufficient for me to not make the April 1, 2012, payment?

I'm not the least bit concerned that I sound crazy for asking this question. People believing I'm crazy is the least of my worries at the moment. I just want to be 100% certain my loan modification is finalized and by not making a payment April 1 I'm not jeopardized anything. Obviously, money is tight and I need to conserve money whenever and wherever possible - but not at the risk of losing my home.

[HowDidIGetHere?]

To pay or not to pay, that is the question...

[MIDSOUTH]

In my opinion, I would say go with the most recent "written" instructions (which include email). I would also take a web snapshot of the pertinent pages of your online account and print them out. If you can scan, I would reply to that email with those web snapshots scanned as attachments, thanking them for their efficiency in handling your request and noting that you have included the snap shot of your account which is in line with their email...oh and also reiterate that you will abide by their instructions by delivering the payment on May 1, 2012. End the letter by letting them know how relieved you are that this ordeal is finally over!

[Jeffrey L. Shurtliff]

Wanted to give you a quick thanks for your fast responses. You do have a very good idea of what I'm going through and it's difficult to express how much that means to me. Trying to explain to the frustration of this process to others is - particularly how emotionally draining it can be - is virtually impossible.

I'll follow up with the leads you offered and see what happens. My sense is there's a 90-95% probability I'll be okay missing the payment (in accordance with the Agreement), but when the stakes are this high and I'm this invested in the outcome, those odds are unacceptable.

Thanks again!

Just a thought here to help you hopefully. You are probably approved in my opinion from your posts. However if they say you are not and you have paid the trial payments that is a presumed contract and the email you have shows a permanent contract. So believing here you are Okay! I also agree with Evan that you cannot trust the online account .......Jeffrey

[HowDidIGetHere?]

I've taken screenshots of every section of the website that shows credits to my account, details on my next payment date (May 1, 2012), and anything else that might be of use. Suppose that comes with dealing with this since Feb 2010, when I made my first loan mod submission that was discarded because "a specialist wasn't assigned to the case" so I had to start all over...

Since then, I've been meticulous in detailing every communication of any and every form, including recording all phone calls. I like the idea of attaching supporting documents along with the comments in a final adieu letter!

Thanks again for everyone's help and support!!

[MIDSOUTH]

Hi IHowDidIgetHere

My point in requesting you to include the snapshots, is to bolster your belief (your belief is very important to a contract) of their intent to "create" a contract, which they initiated by making the original offer via written email. Essentially, in law, when someone proffers an "offer" of something, and the other party "accepts" the offer, a contract is born.

Contracts for property, in my understanding, need to be in writing. You have, via email, an "offer" which you will now accept, and that is what creates the contract. But, you have also included (via web snapshots) their "clear" intention through another source (i.e. internet) to offer you what you have now accepted--basic property law 101. That is why we have written deeds and notes.

Good luck, you sound like you have this thing licked. BTW, not offering legal advise, just letting you know some info so that you can research whatever aspect you believe pertains to you.