Home Affordable Modification on 40 yr mortgage and navigating Chase

[azdmsmith]

On Friday I learned my application was denied AGAIN. The latest reason is that my income is too high. However my house payment is more than 40% of my gross income.

Upon questioning I learned that Chase included $1,200/month as part of my income because they (INCORRECTLY) determined that I receive this amount as child support.

This is probably the most egregious error they’ve made with my application to date because in order to obtain this amount, they had to make some huge assumptions and violated several institutional and FannieMae guidelines.

First, I did not use my child support income as part of my application process. Secondly, even if I had, the number calculated by Chase is greatly different than what I actually receive (they apparently are using figures from my bank statements but I don’t know what kind of math they used to come up with $1,200). The Chase Financial Information form (page 2) states: “child support income need not be revealed if the Borrower does not choose to have it considered”. Additionally, page 9 of the FannieMae Servicing Guide 09-05R reads: “child support income may be included IF the borrower ELECTS to include it”, but also requires that “the income must continue for at least 3 years if it is to be considered”. As I have an older child, this income will not continue for at least 3 years therefore I did not include the information in my application.

After being told my application had again been denied, I questioned the modification counselor about the errors. She placed me on hold to speak with an underwriter, and then an underwriting supervisor who told her that child support is to be included in gross income. After I quoted the guidelines and insisted they were wrong she asked me to email her the FannieMae guidelines that I referenced and call her on August 10^th.

I have been more than patient, but five months into this program it is extremely frustrating that the underwriters, their supervisors, and other employees that are entrusted to make decisions are still not familiar with FannieMae guidelines or their own institution rules and application process. After hundreds of pages of faxes, countless phones calls and letters over the last 5 months, and three denials all of which were inconsistent with FannieMae Servicing Guidelines, it is time for Chase to educate themselves regarding the guidelines and apply them correctly. Time and again Chase has failed to follow the HAMP guidelines. Chase clearly has no idea the impact that this ineptitude has on people’s lives. Nor do they care.

[snapple candy]

azd,
this sure does blow. I dont understand how they can apply your child support as income when "by law" it does not have to be included.
I have been going round and round with a local medical establishment trying to get a write off on an emergency room visit for me since i have no insurance. They insist on using my child support as income regardless of what I say. I have talked till I am blue in the face to have it excluded since the nature of the support is just that support for children, not to pay my own personal medical bills. I even had the local child support service agency rep tell me child support was taxable by the IRS as income! This is a child support worker giving out WRONG information! Talk about uniformed. In the case of public assistance of this type, they can apply what ever rules they want for income.
For purposes of seeking credit, I think there are laws in place for this. You shouldnt have to send them the Fannie Mae guidelines. I believe it is standard practice in the industry. Would it be part of the Truth and Lending Act? Not sure. Good luck with this. It appears many of us who have been fighting a long time, are having to go yet another round with Chase.This whole system is designed to fail and to continually turn us all down and you have to be tenacious to make it thru the gauntlet. Hang in there and keep fighting ("Don't let the bastrds wear you down.")

[CHANLY]

It is unbelievable how many times they have told me things also that don't follow the guidelines. I think the guidelines are pretty straighforward and if it was your job to follow these doesn't it seem like you would be REALLY familiar with what they are??? I did include child support in my income and it asked for court documentation, etc. so seems inconsistent that they would take the liberty to include that for you with no supporting documentation to the amount, time period, and PROOF of timely payments. I feel like I have had the same conversation with their employees before on different matters, where I was telling them what the guidelines are, etc. I am getting ready to make my 3rd payment so I am gearing up for the next round of battles in this ridiculous process! Good luck, keep us posted.

[CHANLY]

Just wondering what percentage your mortgage payment is of your gross income plus the incorrect child support 'income' they calculated? i.e. is that over 31%?

[azdmsmith]

Snapple, thanks for putting me on the right track. The Equal Credit Opportunity Act says that creditors may not ask if you get alimony, child support, or separate maintenance payments, unless they tell you first that you don’t have to provide this information if you aren’t relying on these payments to get credit. While it's true they didn't ask me, they sure as heck scoured my bank statements and made some really poor assumptions.

Chanly, the funny thing is even if my income is inflated with $1,200 in child support, my payment would still be 35% of my income so I should STILL qualify. While it's a shame we have to keep referring them to the guidelines, think about all the people who had their apps denied and just accepted the bogus decisions because they were not familiar with the guidelines. I'm sure Chase would prefer we all accept their decisions as gospel and quietly go away.

[snapple candy]

AZ,glad I could be of help..somewhat. That medical establishment called me yesterday and were willing to reduce my er visit by 75% since I showed my child support went down cuz one turned 18. I guess that brings it down to a realistic billing in the first place. $75 for a 2 min visit with a physicians assistant. Then plus another $75 for the ER doc. The uninsured are really getting it stuck to them too.
I really think this medical establishment whom I provided my bank statements (almost as bad as Chase) looked at my banking statements and made erroneous judgements about my income like Chase did with you. Even though I get a decent amount, they assume I am sitting high on the income level even though my mortgage payment and utilities and food outstrip the child support. When I asked her directly about this, she made some bs comment about...that was your choice. Like I have a choice about getting a sht job and get my hours reduced! Once the come to wrong conclusions and think you have money that isnt there, they process your application different. I cant believe your Chase person came up with those figures and then applied them without your consent.

Yah know, i did use my child support for my loan mod. I provided them the court order. Although I see in the guidelines the support has to be received for 3 years to qualify as income. They have made no mention of it. I think they apply the rules as they want....in order to deny you.
The only way I finally got my trial mod is because I knew the rules and kept holding their feet to the fire with them. Unless you fight for it, you wont get it. Only those educated on the guidelines and who know how to use them, will get a mod. Then we will see how the whole permanent mod thing goes??? I agree, they just want us to go away quietly.

[azdmsmith]

After five months and 6 days, 3 denials, hundreds of faxes, phone calls, emails, and complaints, I AM FINALLY APPROVED for a trial period. I know, I know I’ve heard this before, but I really think this is it.

Just as I was getting ready to hit “send” on a complaint to the OCC about the mishandling of my child support “income”, I got a call from Chase. The person said this was her first approval so asked me to bear with her. I cried when I heard the word approval as that was the last thing I was expecting. She had to read A LOT of disclaimers (about 5 minutes worth) and I was frantically taking notes.

It is the “MHA” mod and I will have 3 trial payments beginning 9/1. The payments are 31% of my REAL gross income WITHOUT child support. The interest rate is 2 % the first year, and increases 1% per year until it gets to 5 ¼% where it will remain for the life of the loan. She broke down the payment into PI, escrow, and HOA dues. It looks like they did an escrow analysis because the escrow portion of my payment went up about $25, but still the total payment including HOA dues which are not currently escrowed is 31% of my income.

I am current on my mortgage and she said they will continue to report my account as current to the credit bureaus but that I am on a modified payment. She said to expect the paperwork within a week. and that the final mod paperwork was ready and would be sent after my second payment. She indicated that my modification is approved (vs. the “preapproval” I supposedly had in April but never got paperwork on) and as long as I make the trial payments on time they would send out the final paperwork before the end of my trial period. I needed her to clarify a couple things (she initially said the trial period was 3-6 months) so she tried to contact the underwriter while she had me on the phone. She wasn’t able to reach him or her but called me back 20 minutes later with the answers I needed.

It’s hard to be an optimist after everything that has happened and I don’t want to get my hopes up, but soooo much time, documentation, and analysis was required on the front end that I really hope they have finally gotten their act together and my experience transitioning to a final mod will go smoothly. For now I am just going to enjoy the moment and a peaceful exhausting break from this battle.

Snapple, I’m glad you got some resolution on your medical issue. Thank you for your support.

[MAXIE19]

AZD:

This is really wonderful news indeed. So happy for you. Amazing how Chase tells different people different things. The ET supervisor told me last week that Chase was not offering 2% to anyone. Anyway, really happy that the nightmare is nearing an end for you.

[AACPA]

I am SO happy for you AZ!!!! It is comforting to know that at least some of us on here are getting the HAMP modification. Now if I could only figure out what to do about my denials. I've been denied so many times for bogus reasons that I don't even know where to begin fighting this. My gut tells me that Chase is doing whatever they possibly can to deny my loan mod because my loan was already modified once through one of their in-house plans even though the Obama guidelines clearly state that it doesn't matter if the loan has already been modified by the servicer and that these modified loans are still eligible for the Obama plan.

[azdmsmith]

Maxie, I don't see how they could possibly say they aren't doing 2%? If someone meets HAMP requirements they are required to lower the payment to 31% of gross income by reducing the interest to as low as 2%, then extend the term of the mortgage if necessary. That sounds like another bogus statement from an uninformed employee.

AAPCA, don't give up! I really know what you mean, I felt like they were looking for any possible excuse to deny me whether it conformed to the guidelines or not. This morning when the mortgage counselor left me a message I was so sure it was another bogus excuse for a denial that I was ready to cry and started thinking about why they would deny me again and what my options were. I had to force myself to return the call. I really believe that it was my Bettter Business Bureau complaint that helped get me some attention because they have to respond to it. When they responded in writing to the BBB with the reasons for my denial that violated the guidelines I disputed their response so I stayed on their radar. I know how draining and exhausting this is, but keep fighting and complain to everyone who will listen (and even those who won't). I hope with Washington watching this process starts to get easier and more efficient. Good luck.

[Stuart C]

Concrats azd. I got my fed-ex yesterday and sent it back last night. First payment due 09/01. I know what my 3 (or 4) payments will be, but not what the terms are if they do the modification.

Again, concrats, as I know as they seem to have saved one of those special hells just for you. Mine was only the run of the mill kind. Funny thing is I've been so obssesed about this since March that it's kinda of strange not to need to call anyone at Chase and try to get something moving!

[diana0806]

Good news azdsmith!!!!!!!!! You have been battling this black hole of chase like me for a long time. The lies, misinformation, ect,ect..... We are finally getting what we deserve. Hang in there and keep us updated. We will prevail!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CHANLY]

What a roller coaster this has been. I am so glad you have finally heard some good news and they gave you the final terms too! Please keep us posted as the rest of this plays out for you. Celebrate one less hurdle.

[snapple candy]

Congrats AZZZZZZZZ!
Yes, you must be doing the "happy" dance. For your sake, I hope the paperwork comes timely so you are not left hanging.
I am still surprised they are giving out the final terms for the MHA trial mods. FYI: The MHA trial mods are 3 mths so I am unsure why they are quoting 3-6 mths. Maybe since she is new? I hope so unless they are starting to make changes. It sure has been rollar coaster! What shall we do with all this extra time that we dont have to fight Chase with? Like have a real life instead of fighting for survival?

[gordilox86]

AZ,

Please make sure you get Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac Form 3156, "Home Affordable Modification Trial Period Plan," signed by Chase. Do not stop calling until you get this form signed by Chase. Good luck.

[azdmsmith]

Thanks for the advice Gordilox, I will look for the form.

I thought the BBB had closed my complaint but I got an email from them giving me 10 days to respond to Chase's latest update to them. Chase originally reported to the BBB that I did not qualify for a mod. I responded by making specific references to the FannieMae guidelines. Their next response was just a brief statement saying they were working with me on a mod (that was the same day they denied me because my income was too high according to their bogus calculations). I will wait and see if I get my package and form 3156 before I respond again.

Thanks everyone for your support and advice. Many times I would have just given up had I not had a place to go to find others in the same boat.

Stuart and Snapple it IS so strange not to be calling Chase every day. I know my exec team person MUST be missing me I've carried this stupid black bag with me back and forth to work everyday with a worn out file folder containing all my Chase paperwork and documentation cause you can just never tell when they would want everything faxed AGAIN. My carpool partner laughs at me because I still carry the paperwork with me everyday out of habit.

Diana, YOU are my hero. You have stayed so positive and have had the most challenges of any story I've read. I am keeping my fingers crossed that your paperwork really arrives this time and is all in order.

[Calli09]

AZD,

I think the color of the bag you carry for the Chase fiasco is quite fitting and funny!!

[Marie T]

Congrats AZ ...I was just told yesterday that CHASE is not doing 2% now even though counselor just told me first of August he had seen "several" come through at that...so double congrats if that is what you are getting!!!

Make sure you get everything in writing....they are not to be trusted!!!

[Marie T]

One quick question and then I must get to work....where did you file with BBB???

I think once I dig out my paperwork so I can prove to them that the income figures are wrong, I need to blast them with everything I can. I still have the predatory loan thing going but they all but laugh at that when I mention it but it will be included now with everything else they are doing now.

[azdmsmith]

My complaint got bounced around for a while before it got to the right office but the correct BBB to file complaints against Chase Home Mortgage is:

The Better Business Bureau Serving Metropolitan New York
257 Park Avenue South
New York, NY 10010
Phone: 212-533-7500 | Fax: 212-477-4912
complaints@newyork.bbb.org

Best of luck to you.

[gordilox86]

Hello Everyone.

Have any of you actually received a HAMP loan modification?

According to Freddie Mac Bulletin Number 2009-19 issued July 13, 2009 (Fannie Mae issued similar guidance on July 13, 2009), as Servicer, Chase must prepare the "HAMP Modification Agreement" in sufficient time to allow for processing the 4rth payment by the first day of the month following the final Trial Period month. The rules state that Chase will only have the option to extend the Trial Period Plan for a 4rth month if the borrower made their 3rd Trial Period payment late.

For those of you in the Trial Period Plan. Have any of you been told you will have to wait an extra month for the actual modification? If so, Chase would be violating the Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae guidelines by telling you this so escalate this issue to Jamie Diamons executive staff like I will be doing tomorrow. I'll post my response. Good Luck.

[azdmsmith]

I received my FedEx package today!!!!! In fact they sent two identical packages. It is the Trial Period Cover Letter and Form 3156. Everything appears to be in order except the payment is about $50 less than I was quoted (so it is less than 31% of my gross income). It also included payment coupons for the trial period payments. I'm not clear if I should continue to make my HOA dues payments which are not currently escrowed but I think I will to be on the safe side.

[cliffdweller]

Congrats AZ!! I know what a huge relief it is to feel like you can actually afford to live!
I found my energy went up immediately...starting cleaning out my sock drawer and all kinds of stuff I couldn't do before!

Very happy for you.

[gordilox86]

AZ,

Welcome to the Trial Period Plan club! Keep making your HOA payments as this is separate from your loan and PITI. I hate to sound like a broken record, but make sure Chase signs your Trial Period Plan (form 3156).

Good Luck.

Gordilox

[azdmsmith]

I do appreciate your great advice. I was going to send the docs back right away even though they aren't due until 9/13, but they want the 1st payment included with the returned docs so I need to wait until closer to 9/1. How long after you returned yours did you get a signed copy back and did you have to bug them? I recall that several people here had issues getting their signed copies.

One thing on the paperwork work that conflicts with what I was told is that my trial period is 4 months rather than 3. I do recall that the FannieMae guidlelines require a 4 month trial period for borrowers who are current. Seems sort of backwards to me, but I am just happy to have made it this far.