Should I make a 6th Trial Period Payment on November 1st?

[gordilox86]

I've made 5 Trial Period Plan Payments to date without receiving a permanent HAMP Modification Agreement. I have a duly executed copy of the Trial Period Plan with fax cover letter from Chase effective June 1, 2009.

09/17/09 - Per Cole (Chase Executive Resolution Group) - I was told by Chase Executive Resolution Group the permanent HAMP Modification Agreement had been approved. Per Cole I should expect to receive final Modification Agreement by 2nd week of October 2009. Cole was able to cite terms of Modified Loan as per underwriter comments.

10/13/09 - Per Sheri (Chase Homeowner Assistance Group) - file is still in underwriting and has not been formerly submitted to Freddie Mac for approval. I was told by Sheri to make a 6th Trial Period Plan Payment.

Should I make a 6th Trial Period Payment on November 1st?

[caldwellb02]

I'd call the Exec Team back and ask them to help with that decision.

[briknope]

Originally Posted by caldwellb02

I'd call the Exec Team back and ask them to help with that decision.

Save your money! I would say no. ( I had to make the post at least 20 characters)

[smit5454]

Make it,

I received a fax yesterday asking for all of my information again. Thought I was starting over, but after calling them they indicated they are at the permanent approval phase and included in the packet was a prepaid return envelope to send the updated income, paystubs, etc. Hope this is means I am getting close whether approved or denied. At least I'll have closure and know where to go from there. The on thing that was in HUGE bold print was to continue making the trial payments or you would be ineligible for the mod.

I am getting ready to make my 6th this week, so MAKE THEM!

[briknope]

Originally Posted by smit5454

Make it,

I received a fax yesterday asking for all of my information again. Thought I was starting over, but after calling them they indicated they are at the permanent approval phase and included in the packet was a prepaid return envelope to send the updated income, paystubs, etc. Hope this is means I am getting close whether approved or denied. At least I'll have closure and know where to go from there. The on thing that was in HUGE bold print was to continue making the trial payments or you would be ineligible for the mod.

I am getting ready to make my 6th this week, so MAKE THEM!

I think its a scam to get more money out of people. BE CAREFUL.

[danoo]

I've made 5 trial payments also.. My sixth was due Oct 1st, which I did not pay and will not.. Also, everytime they asked me for updated info (twice) they said it was for perm mod approval, but instead of receiving a final mod, I received another trial mod.

[Heatherm]

HECK NO! My husband and I are going into our 6th month also, we have decided not to make the full payment. Our trial payment was $200 less than our original payment which is complete BS! We are going to give them half of what our trial payment is because this is all we can afford. They sure are quick to collect money but they are taking forever to get our mod. to us. They want the other half of our payment, then they need to give us what we want.... OUR FINAL MOD! And if they deny us, we'll just keep trying.

[davephx]

The problem is if you don't continue to make trial payments they can foreclose or if have already sell at any time.

[gordilox86]

GUIDANCE:

Per Freddie Mac Bulletin Number 2009-19 July 13, 2009:

A Servicer preparing the HAMP Modification Agreement should allow sufficient processing time for the Servicer to prepare the Modification Agreement and provide it to the Borrower for execution, so that the Borrower has sufficient time to return it to the Servicer and make the first modified payment by its due date, which is the first day of the month following the final Trial Period month.

The Service may extend the due date of the first modified payment only if the Borrower does not pay the final Trial Period payment on or before the due date set forth in Section 2 of the Trial Period Plan.


If the Borrower fails to pay the final Trial Period payment by the due date set forth in Section 2 of the Trial Period Plan, then the Servicer may, at its option, prepare the Modification Agreement such that the first modified payment is due the first day of the second month following the final Trial Period month.


If the Servicer elects to extend the due date of the first payment under Modification Agreement by an additional month (“interim month”), then the Borrower is not required to make any payment during this interim month, and the first payment under the Modification Agreement is due on the first day of the following month. During the interim month interest will accrue at the current rate under the current loan documents.


For example, if the last Trial Period month is August for which Borrower failed to pay the final Trial Period payment timely, the Servicer may, at its option, elect to extend the due date of the first Modified Payment by one interim month. Under this option the Borrower is not required to submit any additional funds during September, and the first payment under the Modification Agreement would be due, October 1^st.

[davephx]

OK even with my CPA background I am lost.

If you fail to pay the final trail period payment timely (thought all had to be timely made to get the final mod), than can ELECT (not must) to extend the due date of the first modified payment.

So you are rewarded for paying the last trial late? But from the beginning one requirement of getting the final mod was to make ALL trials on time.

[gordilox86]

Davephx,

The guidance was written for Servicers not for laymen. I am not saying you are a lay man, just that it is difficult to interpret.

In plain english, the Freddie Mac guidelines require Servicers to send permanent Modification Agreements to Borrowers in advance of the 3rd Trial Period month so the Borrowers have enough time to open their Fed-Ex, review the Modification Agreement and make their payments by the 1st of the 4rth month.

Chase may only delay sending a permanent Modification Agreement to the Borrower if the Borrower was late making their 3rd Trial Period Payment or if the Borrowers financial circumstance changed from the initial Borrower Qualification into the HAMP Trial Period Plan.

Make sense?

Chase has not followed the guidelines. When I wrote to Chase/Freddie Mac Agent for Service of Process and complained on this matter my file was escalated.

I hope this passage helps people.

EY Alumni.

[davephx]

gordilox86 - OK....the confused CPA here.... as others might be,..

Yes SUPPOSE to send the BIG final package after 2nd payment. Mine was supposedly sent October 6th. My next (3rd) trial is due 10/24 but since switched to management team somehow now 11/1 (need to clarify with them)

Lets say I get the Big Package about the same time (UPS Ground) or before my third payment is due. I return the permanent modification agreement (which I am told is what is being sent)...

Than from posts here it may take another xx months to get it approved.

But I can be late... in making the 3rd????? But they will also want me (and others) continue to make our trial mods perhaps into month 4, 5, 6 who knows.

So being late on 3rd late or not pay... is confusing.

Now, maybe the guide assumes we return the mod package before the 3rd payment (after the 2nd so they send) and there is fast approval before the 3rd payment so than we can skip it. Maybe that is the theory but probably never actually works that way.

Or am I still dense and missing the obvious.

[gordilox86]

Davephx,

One final point. This guidance also exempts borrowers from making further payment on their loan until receiving final Modification Agreement.

I have read most of the public Freddie Mac Bulletins and my understanding is the only drawback to not making a 4rth, 5th and 6th Trial Period Payment is:

1) Borrower would not recieve the pro-rata accrual of timely payment incentive bonus.

2) Rate that will accrue on unpaid principle balance (UPB), will be the higher rate per original loan docs instead of new lower Modified Loan rate for this "interim" period betweel Trial Period and Permanent Modification.

So, I think this answers the question. Any thoughts?

[BadBobMo]

Look they follow when they want! Try and save your home for now, you can make a different call after the fact. I will never side w/them put they are up to there ass in mod's, they draged there feet and yes us out as far as the eye can see. What really is pissing me off is that (Timmy/Lenders) are changing thing as they go. At first there was like 2 or 3 things that might keep you out of HAMP but if you look today there is a hole shit-list A-Z.

[gordilox86]

Chase set up their systems and trained their employees from day one (March 5, 2009) to deliberately confuse, deceive and delay, delay, delay!

[BadBobMo]

Pay that payment they can boot-you out and pick right back up where they let off.
1. If they put your payment @ or near the 31% that was for a reason.
2. If they told you not to make a payment, that is to balance out you numbers.
3. If they sent Fed-Package 3 month trail that is for a reason.
Everyone needs to stay the course if you can I think they are reaching for the Hamp-$$$.
We are still on our own for 2nd's as (Timmy/Lenders) figure it out whats in their best intrest. (Go-Figure)!!
Don't let them get you down!

[caldwellb02]

I gotta agree. It's good to be informed about what the regs say, but my experience here is that it usually makes no difference to Chase (altho gordilox's post about getting it escalated after pointing out the regs is encouraging).

[davephx]

Gordilox86- Part of the problem is Fannie/Freddie make up different rules vs the Treasury directives and those issued by HAMPAdmin.

I had not seen this before since I am Fannie and have enough troubles trying to keep their guidelines straight. So I was thinking Hamp/Fannie where here the topic is about HAMP Freddie... And the overall HAMP directives...but different than Fannie which is different fro Freddie...

Fannie and Freddie need to mate and be one...but not have kids...

It is even different for the 1st trial date. For Fannie its the 30th day after approved for trial (vs HAMP 15th thing simiilar to Freddie)

But to the issue... OF course you are right that is what it says. weird.

So whose directives superceeds whose is the issue. HAMP says if you miss any of the 3 trials your out of the program. Now Freddie says you can IF SERVICER ELECTS !!

So first you need to know that the servicer has elected this. If not (which is probably the case) its a mute point.

[gordilox86]

Davephx,

This is not saying you can make a 3rd Trial Period Payment late. So whatever you do DO NOT MAKE YOUR 3RD TRIAL PERIOD PAYMENT LATE!!!

Make sure Chase receives the 3rd Trial Period Payment a few days in advance of the due date!

By making your 3rd Payment on-time Chase has no alternative but to immediately send the Modification Agreement according to this guidance.

What all the others are talking about 4th, 5th, and 6th Trial Period Payments is Chase blantantly failing to follow Freddie Mac guidelines and misinforming borrowers who are unaware of guidelines. I've been told by 2 separate real estate attorneys Chase must follow these guidelines for borrowers in HAMP Trial Period Plans. Failure to follow these guidelines can open Chase up to litigation.

CPA, Real Estate Broker

[Stuart C]

I totally agree with gordilox, you should make any payments timely then you have solid ground to stand on. ESPECIALLY the 3rd payment. JMHO

[litehouse01]

My advice PAY YOUR PAYMENTS ON TIME IF YOU ARE TO HAVE ANY CHANCE IN HELL OF GETTING A PERM MOD! DON'T GIVE THEM REASONS TO KICK YOU OUT AND THEY PROBABLY INTERPATE THAT A MISSED PAYMENT MEANS YOU CAN'T AFOFRD THE TRIAL PAYMENTS SO TREAD CAREFUL..THATS ALL I AM SAYING DON'T GIVE THEM THE SATISFACTION OF KICKING ANYONE OUT JUST TO STAND ON PRINCIPLE...OURS HOMES ARE TOO IMPORTANT!

[c150000]

i agree make the payment !!!! and forget about it, your butt is covered!

[gordilox86]

Davephx,

The guidance is saying you must make all 3 Trial Period payments on-time! However, if the 3rd payment is made after the 31st, the Servicer then has a right to delay the permanent Modification Agreement by one month. If you are more than 60 days late on any one Trial Period Payment then Servicer can kick you out of Trial Period Plan altogether.

The moral of the story is make all 3 Trial Period Plan payments in advance of their due dates. Send the Trial Period payments via fed-ex with signature required and keep the tracking numbers return receipts with Chase signature for your documentation.

If you adhere to this policy, then you will not need to make further payments (ie... 4rth, 5th & 6th payments) on your loan until you receive the final Modification Agreement. One of the two gals that actually received the final Modification Agreement who is now enjoying her new loan did not make any further payments after the 3rd and final Trial Period Payment.

I believe for liquidity purposes, Chase is giving priority to the files that do not make a 4rth, 5th and 6th Trial Period Payment. Any thoughts?

[davephx]

gordilox86 - You state the guidelines exactly as I understand them that they "should" do mod after 3rd payment BUT>>>BUT

As discussion by a major Phoenix law firm if the servicer does not follow the HAMP/Freddie/Fannie directives... we have no power to force them to. There is no enforcement provision in the law only Freddie and Congressional oversight. We have no standing legally in the participation agreements between the servicer and the investor.

Now if it is a judicial foreclosure you may be able to argue it before a judge. But if like many of us with non judicial foreclosure we have no access to the Courts to even suggest the issue, which may not work anyway because we are not party to the participation agreements.

Again the law firm said (and this is in AZ but probably applies to any non judicial state) to file a suit against the servicer would cost at least $15,000 just to get to the discovery phase and probably would not stop the foreclosure sale.

That puts us between the proverbial rock and hard place.

So if the servicer says you have to make the 4,5, 6th payments we are at their mercy if we don't so most of us would do it not to tick off the servicer!

[davephx]

Slight correction.

I believe the participation agreements are between the servicer and the Treasury via HAMPAdmin not with investor. There are safe harbor provisions like using the NPV test to protect the investor. But we have no standing in these agrements to force or sue if they do not comply as I understand from a law firm that does lots of mod work - Davis Miles in Phoenix