Should I make a 6th Trial Period Payment on November 1st?

[davephx]

Oh yes, with Fannie if for some reason you fail for HAMP Fannie has their own modification program. Its lowest rate is 3% instead of 2% and goes up to current market rate faster.

I forget if it has other differing qualifications but Fannie does SEEM to want to get mods done, however some report problems with them. Not to mention their trial reset for 3 more months that was totally confusing a few weeks ago but seems like it really didn't happen.

[gordilox86]

Davephx,

I spoke with a California NAR (National Assoc. of Realtors) Real Estate Attorney this morning who informed me there had been several cases pertaining to HAMP Guidelines brought on by borrowers who'd been damaged by Servicer failure to follow HAMP Guidelines.

The attorney did mention the judicial decisions were in their infancy and he could not confirm whether a borrower could be successful in judicially forcing Freddie, Fannie or the Servicers to follow the guidelines....

Previous attorneys had told me the guidelines would be enforceable under the grounds of failure to "follow documented internal procedures."

I'll post the results to the Real Estate Attorney statement here once I have a return call...

[caldwellb02]

Gordi - that could be interesting.

[gordilox86]

TRIAL PERIOD BORROWERS RIGHTS IN STATE OF CALIFORNIA:

Just got off the phone with Real Estate Attorney. Here is our ("Trial Period Borrowers") rights in the state of California as they were explained to me today as of 3:54pm Thursday, October 15th.

Per Real Estate Attorney "there is nothing in the US Treasury, Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae guidelines that specifically addresses what cause of action the borrower has against the Servicer or Investor in the event the Servicer or Investor does not follow the published guidelines, bulletins, directives etc... Typically a Servicer Agreement or guideline, bulletin or directive will contain a provision which describes the appeals process for a rejection and will specify what cause of action (if any) contractual stakeholder (ie... the borrower) would have in the event of noncompliance by a party to the agreement. Per the Real Estate Attorney this is not the case with any of the HAMP guidelines, bulletins or directives.

INDIVIDUAL LAWSUIT:

The Attorney did say that a borrower could bring an individual California lawsuit free of charge by convincing an attorney they'd incurred damages as a result of Servicer or Investor non compliance of published guidelines. Under California Business Professions code 17200 an attorney can recoup their attorneys fees if they take a case, win and prove the client had been damaged. Many attorneys may be willing to take the case free of charge.

Filing an individual lawsuit in California's court on the grounds guidelines were not followed may be beneficial even if you lose as the presence of an undecided court case could result in Court Ordered injunctions which could serve to stall the foreclosure process.

The attorney did say that there had been a few individual cases which ended in favor of Banks in California as Borrower was unable to convince judge the Borrower had actually suffered damages.

So the key is to prove you've suffered damages (For example: Current Borrower suffered a hardship then applied for HAMP through Chase website. Current Borrowers was turned down after making Trial Payment. Now Current Borrower credit score has been negatively impacted and he/she lost home to foreclosure).

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT:

The lawyer did say the most effective way to seek damages against the Servicer would be to form a class action lawsuit. Curently there is a HAMP Class Action Lawsuit in Minnesota (see link below), which seeks to stall foreclosures in the state altogether until provisions are added to HAMP Guidelines which allow Borrowers to appeal Servicer decisions.

South Florida Bankruptcy Law Blog: HAMP Class Action Lawsuit

Please be aware I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice. For specific legal questions please consult a licensed attorney in your state.

[davephx]

Thanks for posting. The rights of borrowing confirms basically both what the Congressional Oversight Report talked about and what my lawyer told me about no enforcement and we have no standing.

On the individual suite - the idea of taking on a contingency (free of upfront charges if he think he/she can win big) BUT I don't see how you could prove much monetary damages.

There is no obligation to be on trial and your trial payments if denied get applied to what you owe. Your original payment is your obligation with no requirement to change it via HAMP if you failed the NPV. But if you past the NPV ... and met all the other requirements... thinking maybe but not large enough damages to with say a 25% continent fee for the lawyer to maybe run up $50k in legal time to win it?

On credit report - can easily take out the negative info. Probably no money damage from which to get lawyer fees.

On forced home sale - but if underwater probably no money damages other than maybe moving expenses.

Not trying to be negative just realistic.

The BEST idea is the Class Action like in Minnesota. THAT could be a very very interesting case but may take years to battle. As I recall there is a motion on the injunction to be heard today. I am not clear whose side the motion is on.

In the best possible outcome the Judge could issue a Temporary Restraining Order aka injunction to stop all foreclosure sales of those in HAMP trials in Minnesota.

But that may be wishful thinking. But at least we may soon know what one judges opinion is of what I think was a very well to the point lawsuit. But the Treasury etc responses strongly denied complaint and argue like in your first paragraph we have no standing. Will be interesting but doesn't help anyone outside of Minnesota at least directly even if get the TRO.

[gordilox86]

Based on all this research, I believe it may be in my best interest to find a qualified attorney to turn this over to in the event I am unexpectedly denied the Modification Agreement and asked to immediately repay the principle/interest or else.

In the meantime, like a deer in the headlights, I'll make my 6th Trial Payment in hopes a permanent Modification Agreement is forthcomming... I don't have much choice at this point I guess unless I want to potentially marter my home on principle...

[gordilox86]

Davephx,

It seems like you have it all figured out. This program is a sham and gives people false hope.

Where did you get your audit hours?

[litehouse01]

I think your making a wise choice making the 6th trial payment stay positive if you can that all will go in your favor...Look at the glass as half full and you have made it further than others..maybe the 6th payment will be the charm....heres wishing you all the best I pray your mod comes thru...............

[snapple candy]

Interesting conversations. I figure my trial payment is slightly higher than what I could rent for so I will keep making it for a few months. I posted elsewhere gordio about my negotiator for my 2nd (also held by Chase) convinced me it was in my best interest and Chase's to make those 4, 5th and 6th trial payments. If we dont, of course we (borrowers) and Chase do not get any incentive payments. We also wont meet the criteria for having successfully made on-time payments and could potentially kick us out of any chance of a potential permanent modification. I did not want to make that 4th payment on principal too and seeing others being turned down after making 4-6 payments but after talking to him, I decided to go ahead.
Its always has been a wait and see, and that has never changed.
The only good thing I can say about perm mod being processed now is that the interest rates appeared to have gone down again and that is in our favor for the final cap on our loans if and when we get one.

[davephx]

Originally Posted by gordilox86

Davephx,
Where did you get your audit hours?

Huh? audit hours? Unless refers to my CPA firm background. I was with the old Touche Ross centuries ago. But I had previous tax experience with a University professor and very unusually only served about a month in audit (hate it) before moving to their tax dept.

But I doubt this is what your referring to?

[gordilox86]

Davephx,

I have a similar background and was curious.

So the conclusion is, the NPV test, waterfall approach and the rest of the Treasury, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac HAMP guideline mumbo jumbo are completely meaningless. As the guidelines stand the Borrower (by his or herself) has very little recourse in court.

So, why even have a HAMP program at all? If Obama wants cuddo points he'd be better off lowering taxes. All this program does is upset current borrowers struggling to make their payments, and gives false hopes to those who've fallen behind?

The sad fact is, the U.S. Housing Bubble is a $4 trillion problem for which the government has thrown $75 billion. No matter what you call the program it just won't work. Seventy five billion divided by the average loan modification (say $150K) is only 500,000 modifications total. (Davephx, please check my math).

There have been millions of struggling homeowners applying for HAMP. The program doesn't make financial sense!

To make matters worse, instead of using taxpayer funds to modify 500,000 loans under HAMP, Investors/Banks purposefully trained employees, leveraged departmentalization, placed system glitches, lost paperwork, made duplicate requests and stalled callers in a deliberate effort to stall for time and circumvent the HAMP program.

Who knows what loans were modified in the meantime? Maybe all the loans for which no documentation existed? I think we should have a Czar comb through every penny of the $75 Billion to find out were the money really went!

Based on several phone calls I've place to Chase/Freddie Mac over the past couple weeks, there's been alot of switching of personnel around and now no one will return my phone calls. Many of the old Chase/Freddie Mac contacts numbers suddenly changed or now routed to voicemails or turned into fax lines.

Currently Chase Homeowner Assistance Hotline - Freddie Mac, whos purpose until now has been to give Homeowners the run around states:

"We're sorry, due to circumstances beyond our control we are unable to take your call at this time. Please try your call again later."

I really think the verdict is out on HAMP and those who've not received permanent Modification Agreements are now left in the cold on this one...

I want to stay positive but there is now alot of evidence pointing to this conclusion....

[davephx]

gordilox86

Treasuryis fighting like mad to get the directives followed but they have no enforcement authority. They are trying to shame servicers that are not doing permanent mods from trials by the new reporting system with public release of the results each month

95% of all American just got a small tax cut. Tax cuts in my view are basically worthless just as the rebates were almost worthles. We need to have targeted programs to address the issues like HAMP was designed for crisis at the time but not for the now unemployment crisis.

The loan modification amounts are not a cost to the Treasury. Only the part of the reduction from 38% to 31% and the 1000 etc various incentives to survicer, investor and borrower if keep current on modified plan. So I think the goal to help what 3-4 million with the $75 billion may be correct math depending on how much cost for each...maybe with some surplus.

I am not so sure the stalls etc are deliberate but maybe I am just giving them the benefit of the doubt. It was a huge undertaking to train hire staff, maybe increase phone line capacity to ramp up with almost no notice or time to do so.

It is the requirments and reasons for denials that often make no sense and paperwork whether deliberate or just overwhelmed and not enough staff to handle just isn't getting done. There is a huge amount of internal things that have to happen. For example zillions of Faxs with documents come in each day and in mail. Someone has to code them to the right account and get them into their document system.

This is a totally new requirement that they never had to do before in such mass with just new loan apps etc.

As you have expereinced with Chase the phone systems and Faxs simply may be too overwhelmed and they are trying to ramp up more with new systems, bigger computer capacity etc.

That is why in my view we simply need another foreclosure halt. Give servicers time to ramp up more if needed but not with us the victims. And losen up some of the paperwork - New streamlined process again Treasury trying to make easier is small step.

[briknope]

The above mentioned about stalling is what I am kinda sorta hoping for. I fax pages and pages to them and that sends them into more of a spiral. Whenever they call I make it sound like I'm trying my best. I am 6 months past due now and no word of foreclosure. What may come about is another cramdown bill or something similiar as more and more become aware of the sham these banks are putting on us.

In my case, if I did pay them and do what they asked then I would get no results for sure. Look at the "success stories" on these websites. Read them careful. Some people announce they got a "Perm MOD" only to realize they got shafted like everyone else. Some also make only a few posts over the last few months and then all of a sudden "Hey I got a perm. MOD!!" where did they come from ??

A story you DON'T read on here much is how one faxed and faxed papers over the last 6 months and got foreclosed on anyhow.