News of emc/chase denial received today, so heartbroken

[MAXIE19]

Called today to get an update on my loan mod app. The rep told me to hold on while he read the notes. After a long pause, he finally came back and told me that he was sorry to inform me that the underwriter denied my app yesterday due to insufficient income and that a letter to that effect has been sent to me. I am so devastated and don't know what to do at this point. I tried to contact my ET specialist , but she is on vacation until next week. Called her supervisor, was not able to reach her and so left a message. I also decided to go one step further and shoot another email to our dear Mr. Dimon, Ms. Thatch who lovingly sends out those form responsive letters, and my ET's supervisor, Ms. Beth Collins.

Coincidentally, I emailed two of my senators on Monday about my case, and here comes a denial on Wednesday after 4 months of little action. Go figure. Anyway, here is my email to Mr. Dimon which highlights my situation.

"Dear Mr. Dimon:

I last wrote to you about my loan modification application with EMC Chase back on June 23, 2009. After over four months of patiently waiting, diligently providing all requested information and calling several times a week to get regular updates on the status of my application, I was informed this afternoon that my app was denied due to insufficient income by the underwriter. The representative that I spoke to was unable to tell me the details of what information went into this determination. However, the decision is puzzling as we have done all that is in our power to make paying our mortgage obligation our #1 priority even to the point of neglecting some other obligations and needs. We have always been current and never late even on those occasions when we had no option but to rob Peter to pay Paul by borrowing on our credit cards to meet our mortgage obligations.

My mortgage with EMC is approximately $9,974 at a fixed rate of 6.37%. As demonstrated by my 2007/2008 1099s and my 2009 YTD earnings (all verifiable income), I suffered a significant reduction in my income from about 16k a month in 2007 to approximately 11K a month in 2008 and 2009. I however receive an additional 7K a month (approximately) in spousal support contributions and provided a year's worth of banking statements dating back to August 2008 showing the regular and consistent deposit amounts on a twice monthly basis of said amount by my spouse. I also provided a financial statement that left me with a little surplus of about $100-200 dollars a month after all bills and expenses are paid. We are currently under water having paid about 1.7 mil for our home approximately three years ago but the home is valued between 1.1-1.2 mil today.

We have practically exhausted all our savings in the process of making ends meet. We have 3 young children and the news that I received today from EMC has been quite emotionally devasting because this was our last hope of keeping our home.

We respectfully request a reconsideration. Please help us keep our home and regain our financial footing. Thank you so much."

[MAXIE19]

Some additional details. My loan balance is about 1.3 mil and I was told my BPO came back at about 1.2 mil, clearly indicating that we are underwater. As earlier stated, we paid 1.7 mil for the house 3 years ago.

[AACPA]

My loan modification also came back denied today for the same reason....insufficient income.

[Jillian118]

Are you current right now??

[dtap57]

I got the exact same answer you guys did a couple of weeks ago. I was very close to even and i said if you lower my payment i would be ahead. It seems like Chase doesn't seem to want to work with anybody.

FWIW im trying to see what NACA can do. I sure hope they can help me.

[MAXIE19]

Dtap:

I also started the NACA process on Monday in an effort to try a different avenue to see whether that would expedite the process. To be quite honest, I am quite overwhelmed with the wealth of information that NACA is requesting. I sent them everything I sent to Chase and they still want more. Although, the HAMP guidelines do not mandate that your spouse participate in the mod app process if he is not on the loan (in our case due to his less than stellar credit), the email that NACA sent back to me is requesting that my husband jointly sign the documents and provide his financial information as well. In our case since we are both self-employed, they are asking for 6 months worth of banking statements. Here is the email from one Mr. Carlton from NACA:

"Hello,
I am contacting you to see if you are still in need of assistance from the NACA HomeSave Program? If so, we are in need of some additional documents from you in order to being the process. Here is a list of the additional documents we will need in order to build your file.
1. Member Authorization Form: Please sign and date this form. If married, have your spouse also sign and date the form. (Attached in this email)If not attached, due to technical difficulties, please proceed to our website, www.naca.com to print out a form and fax in.
2. Most recent Pay stubs covering the last 30 days for all household members. If self-employed, fax 6 months worth of bank statements in consecutive order. If sending bank statements, we will need you to indicate, by circling the Expenses (E) and Deposits (D) of your business and total them up. If married, we need this information from both parties.
3. If a member of a Homeowner's Association, we will need a statement.
4. We received a Hardship Affidavit from you but the hardship explanation portion was not filled out. We need you to write an explanation in the space provided detailing your hardship and the reason you are seeking assistance from NACA and your lender. Please be as detailed and specific as possible. We need your statement on this form. When faxing this form back in, be sure to include all four pages, even if you only utilize three. We need all pages. If you need a new form, please proceed to www.efanniemae.com. to get a form. If married, both parties must fill out form and sign and date.
5. Form 4506T: We have this form on file from xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx but need both husband and wife to sign and date.
Once this documentation is sent in, please go to NACA to set up a phone appointment with a HomeSave Counselor to review your file. Please be sure to include your NACA ID number on all faxes to ensure it is routed to your file. The fax number is 1-877-fax-NACA. Please allow 24 hours for receipt of your information. If you n! eed to c heck the status of your submitted form, feel free to call 1-888-302-6222. Also, we have tried to contact you to set up a phone appointment with one of our HomeSave Counselors to go over your file. Please give us a call at the number provided to make an appointment."

Just want to know from all those already working with NACA whether this is the norm to make this a joint process when dealing with a married couple. CW California, anyone can you help?

[MAXIE19]

I will continue to stay positive throughout this process as this is the only way I can get through this. In addition to the executive team trying to see what they can do to help us with our reconsideration request, I am also pursuing the NACA option.

Called NACA today to inquire why they were requiring my husband's information since he is not on the loan and the July 28, 2009 Fannie Mae Guidelines 09-05R (Q31) specifically state that the expenses of a non-borrower household member are not to be included only the percentage of his income that the non-borrower routinely contributes to the household. The NACA representive agreed that my husband does not have to provide his business checking account statements or his expenses, just a letter of contribution and our personal joint checking account statements showing the monthly regular and consistent deposits that he makes towards the bills in the household.

Also, received some statistics that may be of interest to those Chase borrowers who may feel like "step children" from the rep that I spoke to today. I asked him about the special relationship that NACA has with BOA and Citibank and the fact that they seem to have a better success rate with those banks than with Chase. He did confirm same and actually went into details to describe how BOA and Citibank finance a significant part of their efforts. He stated that their success rate with BOA and Citibank averages 88% for all submitted proposals. He did however confirm that they also have a contract with Chase, although their success rate is a little bit lower at 62% as of last month. They have not received the stats for this month yet.

According to the rep, the banks view the proposals that are generated from NACA differently from the pro se proposals because NACA has already thoroughly done its homework in making sure that the proposals are in accordance with the governmental guidelines.

Anyway, my conversation with this NACA rep today justs reinforces the fact that none of us on this forum have anything to lose by trying them.

[snapple candy]

I agree Maxie, you have nothing to lose but to have multiple attempts going on at the same time. I did. Have you contacted Fannie Mae directly and filed a complaint? Some are having some luck with that also.

[Marie T]

Hi Maxie,

So sorry to hear that you were denied. I remember getting the same notification - letters from both WAMU and Chase came on the same day saying we were denied due to "insufficient income". Problem is, you do not know if it is $100 insufficient or $1,000.

I am glad you are starting with NACA and thank you for some insight....62% success is better than what I have had so far working directly with CHASE and I know when I spoke to them, they were really interested that I had a predatory loan and I had to fill out all the paperwork on and provide some evidence of that so maybe that will sway things in my favor with their help. CHASE will not even look at that since WAMU did the loan.

All the paperwork you have to fill out for NACA is daunting...it took me about 3 days off and on to get it all done online after the workshop I attended and then I met with them at their office. The workshop was for about 3 hours and located about an hour from my home on a Saturday so that took some time.

I was really down on NACA as they told me AFTER I did everything that I was at the end of the line and they had to take care of everyone who was in foreclosure first...they gave me the impression I would never move up in the line unless I was in foreclosure and I am really trying not to get more than two months behind. So when I called this week, NACA told me my file had been submitted about ten days ago and that was "really fast" since I wasn't in foreclosure.

My advice to you is to get all the NACA stuff in as quickly as possible. My husband is not on my loan either but since I need his income to qualify, CHASE said to list him as co-borrower and NACA told me that every adult in the household has to sign up to be a volunteer for NACA. Not a big deal...just more paperwork to get together.

I have just re-submitted everything this week to CHASE based on my income increase so I am really hoping I am not all the way back to square one. I had a big commission this month, my husband's income increaed slightly and we have drastically cut expenses. Cut home insurance by about $800 a year just because I discovered that I had the kind of roofing to get a discount...so I have probably overpaid fo last 10 years! I have cut everywhere else I possibly can.

[cliffdweller]

My thoughts and prayers are with you MAXIE19 as they are with us all!

[ladycarman]

chase denied us because our yearly income didnt meet the value of the home...go figure it shouldnt matter if you make 500,000 a year or 36,000 a year as long as you are trying to make a payment on the home why should it matter how much your yearly income is...we struggled to make our payments letting some bills go to pay house and then they foreclosed on us that isnt right..i did right calling chase each time we were going to be late or can only pay part of the payment and they told us that would be fine as long as we were making some kind of payment on it that we would be ok...but then come to find out after getting the letter back in may saying they foreclosed on us i called them (chase) and had asked why and they told me that we didnt make full payments and were late and i told them that i had called each time chase told that they didnt have any record of me ever calling....then they proceeded to tell me that they dont accept partial payments and i told them that they (chase) has told me that would be ok as long it was some kind of payment the rep then told me that was incorrect..so screw chase...

[kgeriak]

I also was denied by Chase on Friday in a letter. They stated the reason was an incomplete application. I have given them everything they have asked for. I plan to call on Monday to discuss with someone in the Executive Office because I have been waiting since April 2009 and have sent my records that they requested 2 times. Well over 95 pages to fax and yet we are still at the incomplete application process. I have not paid my mortgage this month because I have not been getting paid by my clients. I am self employed and I don't think they understand what that means. I did not have W-2's - I take a draw from the company and my draw is equal to all the payments I have been making to mortgage, food, utilities, bills in general and have been able to make it bearly. A small adjustment by Chase would be the ultimate answer! I do not know why they do not want to help people. They got all that tax payer dollars and yet they shut us off. Sent a letter to Sen. Dodd and Lieberman and to Rep Himes (new guy who replaced Shays - God I miss Shays) and see if they can intervene. I know that they are not happy about the way things are going. We shall see.

[caldwellb02]

I'm posting all over the place today because I have a decision to make. Been working with Chase and also with Naca for many months. Chase denied me last week, but the reason was bogus and I proved them wrong and they are "reviewing" my file. I'm wondering if going into default will somehow light a fire under this process? Paying the loan each month is incredibly financially difficult, and I can't do it much longer if I expect to still eat and have electricity. What about it, folks? I read somewhere above that you can finesse this for a while by not being more than 2 months late. I assume that would mean, say, not paying August or September, but then paying October, November, etc. etc. Is that even possible? Do they hack fees on each month?

[MAXIE19]

Thanks Snapple, Marie and Cliff for your comments. While driving my son to a birthday party for one of his classmates this evening, we passed through a United Methodist Church with the following message on its bulletin that I think is applicable to the situation of those of us still waiting for a positive outcome out of this process.
I thought I should share. Hope everyone can gain the same inspiration from these words as I did.

"People do not fail, they just give up trying."
"

[Marie T]

Caldwell....everything I read everywhere said you will not get their attention if you are making your payment...they do not care how you get the money to pay it or if you are paying them instead of feeding your kids!! These collectors are minimum wage people and I have read they get some kind of bonus when they get you to pay so they do not care how they get you to pay or what your situation is.

I am behind two months and it is difficult not to get behind three. I was denied for insufficient income but have resubmitted as I got a decent commission check but if I it takes forever for them to get it done, every month the average will go down and I will be back where I started. I believe if it goes to three months late, they can file a notice of default, then any payment you send in they put in a holding account and also can start assessing attorney fees.

LadyCarmen....when I talked to them when I was first going to be late, I said I could make a partial payment and they said they would not apply a partial payment. It just goes in to some reserve or escrow account and as soon as ithe totsal deficit is three or so months late, they start foreclosure action.

It is really crummy that whoever you spoke to mislead you. The thing to remember is, if someone from collections is calling, they will tell you anything just to get you to pay. Who knows whether they are lying intentionally or do not know, but I have decided not to talk to the collection people other than being polite and verifying basic info. I have found that whatever you do tell them, they screw up when they enter info in the computer then the wrong info is on your record so best to tell them as little as possible.

Kgeriak...I am self-employed too so no W-2's ....did you give them profit and loss statements and business checking statements? NACA requires the same thiong so easier just to do it all at once. CHASE paid back the TARP money so I do not think they give a rat's behind how they treat us now....I'm sure they paid it back so the government could not tell them how to run their business!

Seems a lot of us are being denied for "insufficient income" and I am wondering if that is just a handy catch-all to try to get us out of the system? Maybe when they figure out we will just keep re-submitting they will start at least approving a trial mod. If they give us a trial mod at a decent rate and then we fail on that, THEN they have a right to get rid of us! I think all of us just want a chance and I intend to battle them to the end so they would be better off just giving me the trial right now and not wasting any more of their time!

Knowledge is power and we all need to educate ourselves as much as possible and this forum has been fantastic for that. I can't imagine how I would be surviving this ordeal without the internet!

[Marie T]

Thanks for that Maxie.....you are right ...see my above post...I have no intention to give up on the "trying"!

[shade]

MarieT

I dont see where they can say you have insufficient income unless you are beyond 100% backend DTI......

But even at that, there is NOTHING in the MHA plan that says you HAVE to be under X...
I would really grill them on how they are making this decision and with what guidelines.

[Marie T]

Thanks Shade...

I found this explanation of back-end ratio ~

Back-End Ratio:

A ratio that indicates what portion of a person's monthly income goes toward paying debts. Total monthly debt includes expenses her loan payments. Lenders use this ratio in conjunction with the front-end ratio to approve mortgages.





Also known as "debt-to-income ratio".

For example, if your monthly income is $5,000 ($60,000/12) and your total monthly debt payments are $2,000, your back-end ratio is 0.40 or 40%. Generally, lenders like to see a back-end ratio that does not exceed 36%; however, there are lenders who make exceptions for ratios of up to 50% if you have good credit. Some lenders consider only this ratio when approving mortgages, as opposed to using it in conjunction with the front-end ratio.

So if the front-end ratio is your mortgage payment, interest, property taxes, home insurance and HOA fee and your backend ratio is ALL your debt including all the house PITI, I am probably really close to 100%. I think my PITI right now is 58% of income so getting that down to 31% or even 40% would help tremendously! I really wonder if for loans that are not Freddie or Fannie backed and the lenders are doing their "own thing" if they are thinking that we can't exceed 50% backend? if that is the case, most of us will not qualify. From what I have read, most of us resorted to using credit cards to pay other expenses when we lost income so many of us are in the same boat now with too much debt.

On July 17th, some clueless woman from WAMU collections who identified herself as a "Collecter/Modification Counselor" told me that my TOTAL debt to income could not be more than 30% to get a loan mod but the same woman told me that since my loan was over $600,000 I would not qualify on that point either. This same person said I would qualify for a repayment plan.

[caldwellb02]

Okay - I'm really confused again. So the front end debt is my mortgage payments and prop taxes and insurance; the backend debt is all the rest of the debt (like utilities and credit cards and the like)? I thought you added all the debt then use that total fiture in the debt to income (DTI) ratio? Is that way off?

[shade]

Actually caldwell the backend DTI should NOT include items like utilities or food - only items on your credit report.

[kgeriak]

Ok I need some help here - If my income is $112200 per year and my mortgage payments and my loans are equal to $5000.00 per month what would my DTI be? Is that too little income - been doing it for years and never felt the pinch bad - Right now the customers aren't paying as quickly as they did. they are all small businesses in my community and sales is low. Any ideas?